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[Music]

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hello everyone not Martin Willis your

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host and I'm really excited about

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tonight's guest on the everything else

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show it's John Kiriakou and he he was a

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former CIA officer former senior

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investigator for the Senate Foreign

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Relations Committee and former

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counterterrorism consultant for ABC News

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basically what happened is he went to

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prison for 23 months basically on

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I think trumped-up charges no pun

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intended and we're going to be talking

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about that but he was charged at one

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point with espionage which is a crazy

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lost em all the way back from World War

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one that is on the books and I think

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abused and so some of you may think this

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is a controversial show but it's stuff I

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want to talk about so dagnabbit I'm

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going to talk about it and how you doing

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John welcome to the show I'm doing well

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Martin thanks for having me and I

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actually watched a great show that you

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were in it was called silenced a

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documentary and I remember that's when I

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first contacted you and you were nice

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enough to actually get back in touch

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with me and I thought that was great

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and what a excellent movie I suggest

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anyone that's interested in this topic

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watch that thank you you know what it's

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still available on Netflix even though

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it's been out for four years now it's

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still on Netflix and iTunes and Amazon

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and we were actually nominated for an

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Emmy les really Wow and you know the the

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the people that are in that show I

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wanted to talk about also in this there

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was a jezzin Ray deck Tom Drake people

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like that that well Tom you know went

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through pure hell as well

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it was lucky he didn't get sentence and

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charged like what happened to you and

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let's first of all just as a nutshell

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for the person that's not aware of your

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case and how this whole thing happened

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can you

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explain exactly how this all unfolded in

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the very beginning and sure I gave a

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nationally televised interview in

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December 2007 to ABC News in which I

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said three things I said that the CIA

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was torturing its prisoners I said that

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torture was official US government

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policy it was not the result of a rogue

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CIA officer as President Bush had

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intimated and I said that the torture

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policy was personally approved by the

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President himself and within 24 hours

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the FBI began investigating me they

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closed the case a year later so I was

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investigated from December 2007 to

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December 2008 and the FBI determined

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that I had not committed a crime what I

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did not know was that three weeks later

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when President Obama was inaugurated the

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most transparent president ever the CIA

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asked him to secretly reopen the case

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against me

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which he did I had no idea that I was

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under investigation for the next three

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years and then finally in January of

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2012 I was charged with five felonies

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coming out of that interview including

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three counts of espionage that's amazing

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and let's talk about espionage because

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you know that goes back to 1917 and I

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know it's been amended several times but

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how do you think that's being used today

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I mean that's that's like a tool that's

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being used wrongly I believe yeah it's

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it's an iron fist to tell you the truth

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um and President Obama's use of the

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Espionage Act was scandalous in that as

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you pointed out Martin the Espionage Act

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was written in 1917 to combat German

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saboteurs during the first world war

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between 1917 and 2009 three Americans

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were charged with espionage for speaking

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to the press just under President Obama

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eight Americans were charged with

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espionage for talking to the press

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that's almost three times the number of

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all previous presidents come

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line and it was because Obama had a

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Nixonian

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obsession with national security leaks

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he did not recognize whistleblowing as

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in the national interest and he used the

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Espionage Act to prosecute political

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crimes amazing so let's up I mentioned

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Jesslyn a minute ago and her statement

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that she makes up she wishes that could

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go back to a pre two nine nine ten

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instead of nine eleven yeah she said I

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want my September 10 country back right

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and so tell me and I remember in

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watching silenced were Tom Drake says

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the someone in the NSA said to him this

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is a gift 9/11 is a gift now we can get

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all the money and more that we ever

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dreamed of you know and now I can

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understand why all these conspiracies is

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9/11 conspiracies you know come stem

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from that but what did you see

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change in the CIA as soon as 9/11

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happened literally everything I was in

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the counterterrorism center at the time

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we had a few hundred employees by

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September 12th we had nearly 2,000

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employees in the counterterrorism center

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and we had a budget and a supplemental

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appropriation I can't tell you the

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actual number because it's still

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classified but it just the just a

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supplement dwarfed the counterterrorism

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centers actual budget I actually

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approached the head of counterterrorism

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cofre black in the immediate immediate

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aftermath of 9/11 and I said I had an

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idea for an operation that I wanted to

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initiate in a European country and

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before I could even explain to him what

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it was he put up his hands and he said

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whatever it is just do it he said I have

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so much money

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I can't possibly spend it all just doing

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well and so I did it and it wasn't just

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me I'm talking about you know case

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officers operations officers acting all

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over the world

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amazing amazing now your book of course

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we want to talk about that that was

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recently released doing time like a spy

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how the CIA taught me to survive and

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thrive in prison I do want to talk about

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your your stint your twenty three months

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in prison but first I want to talk on

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how what happened between this whole

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thing initiating and how they dragged it

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out and I heard you say in an interview

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that they stack charges so can you talk

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about that yeah there there are two

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tactics that the Justice Department uses

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to to break defendants and to win their

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cases one is called venue shopping where

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they will charge you in the federal

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district where they are most likely to

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get a conviction and most likely to get

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a severe sentence so if if they think

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that that you're going to get the worst

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possible sentence in the Eastern

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District of Virginia that's where

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they're going to charge you so that's

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where they charged me that's where they

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charged Jeffrey sterling another CIA

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whistleblower that's where they charged

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Ed Snowden that's where the rumor is the

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grand jury is meeting on Julian Assange

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so that's venue shopping the Eastern

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District of Virginia is known as the

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espionage Court because no national

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security defendant has ever won a case

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there we all lose and it's because the

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judges are hanging judges and they just

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deny your motions and then you end up

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not being able to defend yourself now

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the other tactic is called charge

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stacking let's say you actually have

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done something wrong or you've done

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something illegal regardless of what

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your intent was instead of charging you

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with that one crime they'll charge you

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with five ten twenty felonies and

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they'll make you defend yourself up to

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the point where you go broke and when

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you finally go bankrupt they'll come

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back to you and say all right we'll

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dismiss all of the charges except one if

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you take a plea well you're all red

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broke and I'll use myself as an example

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I was charged with these five felonies

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well I hadn't committed a crime the FBI

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said so that I hadn't committed a crime

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but the CIA insisted that I be charged

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and then I had to defend myself

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well between January when I was arrested

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in October when I finally went broke the

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Justice Department came back and said

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okay take a plea to this lesser charge

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we'll drop all the other charges I said

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no I'm gonna go to trial and my

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attorneys pulled me aside and said

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listen this is how this is going to play

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out if we go to trial and we will if you

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want to when we go to trial it's going

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to cost you another two to three million

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I had already spent a million got right

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so it took everything I had plus I still

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owe them eight hundred and eighty

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thousand dollars and they're telling me

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it's going to be an extra two to three

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million if you lose and this is the

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Eastern District of Virginia so you

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probably will lose you are realistically

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looking at 12 to 18 years in prison

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you could get 24 years but the

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government's offering you two and a half

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if you take the deal

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so take the deal well like I said it

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becomes an economic decision I have five

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kids and so one night my wife and I sat

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at the dining room table with a

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calculator and we figured out how long

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we could continue to make it as a family

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with me in prison and we figured that we

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could probably make it for two years and

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I ended up doing 23 months Wow amazing

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and now the question that comes to mind

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is if you you obviously had a stellar

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team of lawyers but why didn't they tell

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you in the very beginning that you have

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no chance instead of racking up the

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million-dollar bill you know Martin I've

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asked myself that question a hundred to

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those uh and I I don't have a

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satisfactory answer looking looking back

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on that whole nightmare experience you

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know I'm a big boy

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I'm tough right I spent a year kicking

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butts all over the world for the CIA I

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can handle the truth and I wish they had

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said to me you know when I first got

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arrested this is how this is going to

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play out but they didn't and it might

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have been because we were filing motion

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after motion after motion and I think

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maybe they thought in the beginning that

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we could win in fact I hired a jury

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consultant I didn't even hire him he

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volunteered to help me he's the the

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uncle of a very dear friend and he had

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been OJ Simpson's jury consultant he was

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George Zimmerman's jury consultant and

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William Kennedy Smith so serious like a

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list criminal cases right so he flew up

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to Washington and we got him a security

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clearance and he went through all of the

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discovery that the Justice Department

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had sent us and then we sat down in the

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attorney's office and then he sort of

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gave his briefing and he said listen if

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we were in any other district in America

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I would say this case is a winner we're

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gonna win this thing but the Eastern

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District of Virginia he said your jury

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is going to be made up of people from

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the CIA the FBI the Department of

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Defense the Department of Homeland

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Security intelligence community

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contractors you don't have a chance you

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have to take the deal he said we could

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win it if we were anywhere else in the

275
00:12:58,600 --> 00:12:56,180
country but not show theirs and it was

276
00:13:01,800 --> 00:12:58,610
that that made me decide to dig the deal

277
00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:01,810
so there's no sense of empathy between

278
00:13:10,270 --> 00:13:05,600
these people if they put themselves in

279
00:13:12,430 --> 00:13:10,280
your position obviously yeah the

280
00:13:14,380 --> 00:13:12,440
internal I'm talking about say you were

281
00:13:17,140 --> 00:13:14,390
talking about who the jurors would be

282
00:13:18,460 --> 00:13:17,150
and it seems like professionally they

283
00:13:22,090 --> 00:13:18,470
would they'll say boy that could happen

284
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:22,100
to me it would it's not like that no not

285
00:13:24,580 --> 00:13:22,730
at all

286
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:24,590
you know you hear all the time people

287
00:13:28,450 --> 00:13:26,810
who have sat on juries saying well if

288
00:13:31,330 --> 00:13:28,460
they were innocent the cops would never

289
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:31,340
rest up in the first place yeah you hear

290
00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:32,810
that all the time and then I read once

291
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:33,360
in the washing

292
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:35,610
to most that a jury in the Eastern

293
00:13:41,509 --> 00:13:38,130
District of Virginia would would find

294
00:13:42,860 --> 00:13:41,519
guilty a bologna sandwich if the

295
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:42,870
prosecution asked them because it's

296
00:13:49,699 --> 00:13:47,519
baloney you know did you talk about how

297
00:13:53,210 --> 00:13:49,709
and I'm going to use this word maybe

298
00:13:57,079 --> 00:13:53,220
improperly but the FBI tried to entrap

299
00:13:59,360 --> 00:13:57,089
you oh I don't think you're using the

300
00:14:00,500 --> 00:13:59,370
word improperly at all when I was with

301
00:14:02,389 --> 00:14:00,510
the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

302
00:14:05,690 --> 00:14:02,399
one of the one of the things that I

303
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:05,700
enjoyed the most was was talking to

304
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:08,010
foreign diplomats right I spent my

305
00:14:13,940 --> 00:14:11,610
entire adult life in in intelligence and

306
00:14:16,340 --> 00:14:13,950
diplomacy stationed overseas and a half

307
00:14:18,250 --> 00:14:16,350
a dozen countries and I really loved the

308
00:14:21,380 --> 00:14:18,260
give-and-take of international affairs

309
00:14:23,180 --> 00:14:21,390
so I got to have lunch with foreign

310
00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:23,190
diplomats all the time when I was on the

311
00:14:26,750 --> 00:14:24,540
Senate Foreign Relations Committee and

312
00:14:29,810 --> 00:14:26,760
one day a Japanese diplomat called me

313
00:14:31,699 --> 00:14:29,820
and invited me to lunch so I accepted we

314
00:14:35,090 --> 00:14:31,709
went to a restaurant on Capitol Hill and

315
00:14:37,939 --> 00:14:35,100
as I recall that lunch I remember it

316
00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:37,949
being delightful we talked about the

317
00:14:41,689 --> 00:14:39,630
Middle East peace process we talked

318
00:14:43,220 --> 00:14:41,699
about Turkish elections and there were

319
00:14:46,389 --> 00:14:43,230
elections in Israel we had a really

320
00:14:50,870 --> 00:14:46,399
great conversation and at the end of the

321
00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:50,880
lunch the Japanese diplomat says to me

322
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:53,250
so what's next for you and I said well

323
00:14:57,500 --> 00:14:54,930
actually I think I'm going to resign

324
00:15:00,050 --> 00:14:57,510
soon I promised Senator Kerry I give him

325
00:15:01,340 --> 00:15:00,060
two years it's been two and a half and I

326
00:15:04,340 --> 00:15:01,350
think I'd like to go into business for

327
00:15:07,670 --> 00:15:04,350
myself and he got very animated and he

328
00:15:11,630 --> 00:15:07,680
said no no don't do that if you give me

329
00:15:13,939 --> 00:15:11,640
information I can give you money and I

330
00:15:16,730 --> 00:15:13,949
said what's the matter with you

331
00:15:18,620 --> 00:15:16,740
cold pitching me like that shame on you

332
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:18,630
you know how many times I've made that

333
00:15:23,930 --> 00:15:21,600
pitch in my life so I excused myself and

334
00:15:26,689 --> 00:15:23,940
I went directly to the office of the

335
00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:26,699
Senate security officer and I said I

336
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:28,110
want a report that I've just been

337
00:15:32,540 --> 00:15:29,250
approached by a foreign intelligence

338
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:32,550
officer so he had me write it up on a

339
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:34,050
standalone computer and he sent it to

340
00:15:41,180 --> 00:15:38,010
the FBI so the FBI

341
00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:41,190
a day later sent two young agents up to

342
00:15:44,990 --> 00:15:43,920
interview me and I told them the whole

343
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:45,000
story

344
00:15:49,490 --> 00:15:46,890
and they said okay here's what we want

345
00:15:52,610 --> 00:15:49,500
you to do we want you to call him back

346
00:15:55,490 --> 00:15:52,620
invite him to lunch and try to get him

347
00:15:57,230 --> 00:15:55,500
to tell you exactly what information he

348
00:15:59,690 --> 00:15:57,240
wants and how much money he's willing to

349
00:16:01,370 --> 00:15:59,700
pay for it I said okay you want me to

350
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:01,380
wear a wire or something they said no

351
00:16:03,650 --> 00:16:02,730
we're going to be at the next table

352
00:16:06,530 --> 00:16:03,660
we're gonna listen the whole

353
00:16:09,050 --> 00:16:06,540
conversation I said terrific so I called

354
00:16:10,850 --> 00:16:09,060
him invited him to lunch he said yes the

355
00:16:12,530 --> 00:16:10,860
day of the lunch the FBI called me and

356
00:16:13,940 --> 00:16:12,540
said that something had come up that

357
00:16:15,830 --> 00:16:13,950
they couldn't make it but that I should

358
00:16:18,140 --> 00:16:15,840
go ahead and do it and just write them

359
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:18,150
another memo so I had lunch with the guy

360
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:20,610
a second time I wrote up the memo I sent

361
00:16:23,810 --> 00:16:22,170
it to the FBI and then they asked me to

362
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:23,820
do it a third time and then a fourth

363
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:26,610
time and then a fifth time and finally

364
00:16:32,090 --> 00:16:28,770
in the fifth lunch the guy told me that

365
00:16:34,490 --> 00:16:32,100
he had been promoted that he was given

366
00:16:36,350 --> 00:16:34,500
his dream job his dream job and he was

367
00:16:37,940 --> 00:16:36,360
going to be the number two in the

368
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:37,950
Japanese embassy in Cairo

369
00:16:45,230 --> 00:16:41,040
so I congratulated him I shook his hand

370
00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:45,240
never saw him again a year later when we

371
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:48,000
get discovery from the Justice

372
00:16:55,070 --> 00:16:50,970
Department we get these documents

373
00:16:58,460 --> 00:16:55,080
showing that there never was a Japanese

374
00:17:00,170 --> 00:16:58,470
diplomat that he was an FBI agent and he

375
00:17:04,449 --> 00:17:00,180
was trying to get me to commit real

376
00:17:06,860 --> 00:17:04,459
espionage and I kept foiling them

377
00:17:09,770 --> 00:17:06,870
because I was writing them these memos

378
00:17:12,290 --> 00:17:09,780
that contained a blow by blow by blow of

379
00:17:15,770 --> 00:17:12,300
the entire conversation finally after

380
00:17:18,350 --> 00:17:15,780
the fifth try they decided that I was

381
00:17:20,870 --> 00:17:18,360
not going to commit espionage and so

382
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:20,880
they dropped the case and I said to my

383
00:17:24,350 --> 00:17:22,050
lead attorney why would they do

384
00:17:25,730 --> 00:17:24,360
something like this and he said because

385
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:25,740
they have a [\h__\h] case and they know it's

386
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:29,010
[\h__\h] and so that's why I decided to

387
00:17:34,370 --> 00:17:32,130
fight they were setting me up and I was

388
00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:34,380
going to fight them it's really that's

389
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:37,710
such an unbelievable story I mean that

390
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:39,090
they would actually do that it's three

391
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:40,770
million dollars of the taxpayers money

392
00:17:45,620 --> 00:17:43,530
they spent to investigate me and put me

393
00:17:47,870 --> 00:17:45,630
in prison his society really better off

394
00:17:48,650 --> 00:17:47,880
was that three million dollars money

395
00:17:52,580 --> 00:17:48,660
well-spent

396
00:17:54,980 --> 00:17:52,590
crazy crazy now to your knowledge had

397
00:17:59,029 --> 00:17:54,990
they tried any other tactic to entrap

398
00:18:06,179 --> 00:18:03,179
I'm not sure they tried to intimidate my

399
00:18:08,699 --> 00:18:06,189
wife I had I had written an op-ed for

400
00:18:12,299 --> 00:18:08,709
the Los Angeles Times right before the

401
00:18:14,639 --> 00:18:12,309
2008 election and I got the op-ed

402
00:18:16,139 --> 00:18:14,649
cleared by the CIA's publications Review

403
00:18:19,979 --> 00:18:16,149
Board so there was no problem

404
00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:19,989
and in this op-ed I said that whoever's

405
00:18:23,729 --> 00:18:21,369
elected president whether it's Barack

406
00:18:25,679 --> 00:18:23,739
Obama or John McCain they really need to

407
00:18:28,559 --> 00:18:25,689
pay attention to relations with Latin

408
00:18:30,779 --> 00:18:28,569
American countries because the Iranians

409
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:30,789
are and the Iranians were improving

410
00:18:36,329 --> 00:18:33,369
relations they opened a factory in

411
00:18:39,239 --> 00:18:36,339
Venezuela and a factory in Paraguay and

412
00:18:41,219 --> 00:18:39,249
a factory in or away and they were doing

413
00:18:44,789 --> 00:18:41,229
all this this work in Latin America and

414
00:18:47,939 --> 00:18:44,799
we were ignoring Latin America so there

415
00:18:51,089 --> 00:18:47,949
was one line in this op-ed where I said

416
00:18:52,919 --> 00:18:51,099
that that the government of Paraguay had

417
00:18:56,759 --> 00:18:52,929
lifted visa restrictions on Iranian

418
00:18:59,249 --> 00:18:56,769
Nationals now I got that information

419
00:19:02,309 --> 00:18:59,259
from the Paraguayan foreign ministry's

420
00:19:05,729 --> 00:19:02,319
website and it was confirmed in a UPI

421
00:19:07,529 --> 00:19:05,739
Latin America Press report well my wife

422
00:19:10,259 --> 00:19:07,539
at the time was a senior CIA officer

423
00:19:13,259 --> 00:19:10,269
working on Iran and we had a rule in our

424
00:19:15,329 --> 00:19:13,269
house that we never talked about Iran

425
00:19:20,519 --> 00:19:15,339
and it was because I never wanted to put

426
00:19:22,889 --> 00:19:20,529
her in a bad position so um my op-ed

427
00:19:25,169 --> 00:19:22,899
runs on a Sunday Monday morning she gets

428
00:19:27,179 --> 00:19:25,179
called into the CIA's office of security

429
00:19:29,699 --> 00:19:27,189
they take her into a conference room and

430
00:19:31,949 --> 00:19:29,709
there's a camera set up and it's on and

431
00:19:33,719 --> 00:19:31,959
they're videotaping her and they said

432
00:19:35,999 --> 00:19:33,729
this is not an investigation it's an

433
00:19:37,889 --> 00:19:36,009
inquiry but we wanted to ask you about

434
00:19:39,839 --> 00:19:37,899
an op-ed that your husband published

435
00:19:43,039 --> 00:19:39,849
yesterday in the Los Angeles Times and

436
00:19:46,349 --> 00:19:43,049
she said my husband got that cleared and

437
00:19:50,849 --> 00:19:46,359
the investigator said and we appreciate

438
00:19:54,569 --> 00:19:50,859
that but the op-ed contained very highly

439
00:19:58,619 --> 00:19:54,579
classified top-secret human intelligence

440
00:20:02,099 --> 00:19:58,629
and she said my husband doesn't have

441
00:20:03,749 --> 00:20:02,109
access to classified top-secret human

442
00:20:07,919 --> 00:20:03,759
intelligence and the investors

443
00:20:10,990 --> 00:20:07,929
investigator said but you do and she

444
00:20:14,740 --> 00:20:11,000
said I'm telling you my husband

445
00:20:15,669 --> 00:20:14,750
I used press reports for that op-ed and

446
00:20:17,529 --> 00:20:15,679
that was it

447
00:20:20,529 --> 00:20:17,539
we have a policy at home we never talk

448
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:20,539
about Iran and they said she could make

449
00:20:25,990 --> 00:20:22,970
this whole thing go away if I faxed over

450
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:26,000
my sources so she called me from the car

451
00:20:32,399 --> 00:20:28,970
crying understandably

452
00:20:34,990 --> 00:20:32,409
and I immediately faxed over a

453
00:20:37,390 --> 00:20:35,000
screenshot from the Paraguayan foreign

454
00:20:39,549 --> 00:20:37,400
ministry website and the UPI Latin

455
00:20:41,710 --> 00:20:39,559
America press piece and I said do me a

456
00:20:45,970 --> 00:20:41,720
favor I said pass them a message for me

457
00:20:49,090 --> 00:20:45,980
to number one apparently nobody in the

458
00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:49,100
CIA speaks Spanish to be able to read

459
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:50,809
the Spanish press and see that this is

460
00:20:56,169 --> 00:20:53,090
in the press number two they apparently

461
00:20:59,740 --> 00:20:56,179
have what they're calling a highly

462
00:21:02,409 --> 00:20:59,750
placed top-secret human source who's

463
00:21:04,149 --> 00:21:02,419
selling them press reports and calling

464
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:04,159
it intelligence they have a

465
00:21:09,940 --> 00:21:07,010
counterintelligence problem but they

466
00:21:14,740 --> 00:21:09,950
they finally dropped it wow that's

467
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:14,750
really well it's really a craziness

468
00:21:19,630 --> 00:21:17,330
because you know I start to think about

469
00:21:24,250 --> 00:21:19,640
how this whole thing came about and how

470
00:21:27,370 --> 00:21:24,260
you have to suffer and what you went

471
00:21:30,190 --> 00:21:27,380
through and it just seems like it comes

472
00:21:33,820 --> 00:21:30,200
down to someone's bruised ego you know

473
00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:33,830
oh yeah is is that yeah if you if you

474
00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:36,320
air the dirty laundry and you embarrass

475
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:38,480
somebody at the at the you know top of

476
00:21:42,789 --> 00:21:40,970
government you're going to you're going

477
00:21:44,830 --> 00:21:42,799
to go down they're going to make sure

478
00:21:46,180 --> 00:21:44,840
that you go down and not just go down

479
00:21:47,919 --> 00:21:46,190
but they're going to ruin you to make

480
00:21:49,810 --> 00:21:47,929
you an example for other people who are

481
00:21:52,659 --> 00:21:49,820
considering blowing the whistle on rape

482
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:52,669
waste fraud and abuse wow that's that's

483
00:21:59,680 --> 00:21:55,130
really something so are you afraid now

484
00:22:00,820 --> 00:21:59,690
at all are you watching what you do I'm

485
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:00,830
not afraid of anybody

486
00:22:07,330 --> 00:22:03,490
I know that history will judge me as

487
00:22:09,909 --> 00:22:07,340
having been right I'm right on torture

488
00:22:12,450 --> 00:22:09,919
they're wrong I will said that they do

489
00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:12,460
sometimes engage in petty harassment

490
00:22:16,750 --> 00:22:15,200
every once in a while not terribly often

491
00:22:18,789 --> 00:22:16,760
but two or three times a year

492
00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:18,799
I'll be under surveillance and they'll

493
00:22:23,100 --> 00:22:21,110
follow me you know to the store just to

494
00:22:25,620 --> 00:22:23,110
church to work whatever

495
00:22:29,070 --> 00:22:25,630
um and then they drop off after a day or

496
00:22:31,020 --> 00:22:29,080
two I just assume that they're reading

497
00:22:32,460 --> 00:22:31,030
my emails and text messages and

498
00:22:34,110 --> 00:22:32,470
listening to the phone calls like I

499
00:22:37,770 --> 00:22:34,120
don't know but I just assume that they

500
00:22:39,150 --> 00:22:37,780
are but I have nothing to hide they're

501
00:22:42,270 --> 00:22:39,160
the ones who are hiding their dirty

502
00:22:44,419 --> 00:22:42,280
secrets now the law goes back quite a

503
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:44,429
goes back a ways

504
00:22:51,830 --> 00:22:49,090
Against Torture and the oh yeah torture

505
00:22:54,810 --> 00:22:51,840
the federal torture Act of 1946

506
00:22:56,460 --> 00:22:54,820
specifically banned exactly the

507
00:22:59,760 --> 00:22:56,470
techniques that we were using against

508
00:23:01,950 --> 00:22:59,770
al-qaeda prisoners and so when 9/11

509
00:23:04,710 --> 00:23:01,960
comes along now they change that they

510
00:23:08,010 --> 00:23:04,720
call it enhanced interrogation is that

511
00:23:10,110 --> 00:23:08,020
what it is that's what they call it it's

512
00:23:12,570 --> 00:23:10,120
it's torture they can use whatever

513
00:23:14,370 --> 00:23:12,580
euphemism they want it's torture without

514
00:23:17,340 --> 00:23:14,380
it without any question and now I'm

515
00:23:19,890 --> 00:23:17,350
going to ask a question that I'm almost

516
00:23:22,530 --> 00:23:19,900
afraid to ask but do you feel that

517
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:22,540
there's a growing movement toward people

518
00:23:30,210 --> 00:23:26,490
wanting the Americans to use torture I

519
00:23:32,010 --> 00:23:30,220
do you know what it makes me sick to my

520
00:23:35,010 --> 00:23:32,020
stomach but if you look at the polls a

521
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:35,020
clear majority of Americans support a

522
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:37,690
torture program it's something like 54%

523
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:40,809
and let me just it's something that as a

524
00:23:47,909 --> 00:23:43,570
country we ought to be yes and as far as

525
00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:47,919
we know statistically it does not it's

526
00:23:54,419 --> 00:23:52,480
not effective no no it just simply

527
00:23:59,010 --> 00:23:54,429
doesn't work I mean on top of being

528
00:24:02,280 --> 00:23:59,020
morally and and ethically repugnant it

529
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:02,290
just simply doesn't work and so let's

530
00:24:09,299 --> 00:24:05,610
talk about the different types of

531
00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:09,309
torture that is possibly being used

532
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:11,520
because I think some people have died

533
00:24:18,419 --> 00:24:16,570
while being interrogated so to speak so

534
00:24:21,630 --> 00:24:18,429
let's talk about the different types of

535
00:24:24,270 --> 00:24:21,640
torture that were actually allowed for

536
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:24,280
let's say al-qaeda or any other any

537
00:24:29,909 --> 00:24:27,760
other prisoner of war well that there

538
00:24:31,220 --> 00:24:29,919
were ten different techniques that were

539
00:24:34,350 --> 00:24:31,230
authorized by the Justice Department

540
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:34,360
with the most mild being something

541
00:24:38,910 --> 00:24:36,850
called the belly slap so it's in

542
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:38,920
open-handed smack across the belly it

543
00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:41,770
makes a loud cracking sound and makes a

544
00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:44,710
handprint on your on your belly um and

545
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:47,500
then it went to the the facial slap and

546
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:49,570
and we're one where they grab you by the

547
00:24:55,710 --> 00:24:53,170
lapels and slam you against a wall and

548
00:24:59,730 --> 00:24:55,720
then it went all the way up to two three

549
00:25:01,830 --> 00:24:59,740
really terrible techniques one was

550
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:01,840
waterboarding and everybody knows about

551
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:03,370
waterboarding now but there were two

552
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:05,290
that I've always maintained were worse

553
00:25:12,150 --> 00:25:08,290
than waterboarding one was um sleep

554
00:25:14,790 --> 00:25:12,160
deprivation scientists will tell us that

555
00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:14,800
people begin losing their minds when

556
00:25:21,380 --> 00:25:17,440
they get to day seven with no sleep and

557
00:25:23,550 --> 00:25:21,390
people begin to die around day nine and

558
00:25:25,620 --> 00:25:23,560
when I when I say sleep deprivation

559
00:25:30,210 --> 00:25:25,630
you're chained to an eyebolt in the

560
00:25:32,340 --> 00:25:30,220
ceiling so that you can't sit or kneel

561
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:32,350
or lay down you can't get comfortable

562
00:25:43,170 --> 00:25:39,840
you have to stand or hang we know that

563
00:25:45,330 --> 00:25:43,180
day twelve people begin to die I'm sorry

564
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:45,340
day nine and the CIA was authorized to

565
00:25:49,230 --> 00:25:47,290
keep people awake for twelve days so

566
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:49,240
seven days you lose your mind nine days

567
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:52,210
you start to die CIA was going 12 out

568
00:25:57,390 --> 00:25:54,970
and indeed indeed they killed a prisoner

569
00:25:59,790 --> 00:25:57,400
that way another terrible one was called

570
00:26:03,600 --> 00:25:59,800
the Colima just before air and from that

571
00:26:05,700 --> 00:26:03,610
how besides having them hang like that

572
00:26:10,860 --> 00:26:05,710
what are some other things they do to

573
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:10,870
keep them awake oh they they bombard the

574
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:15,490
cell with with hard rock music 24 hours

575
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:19,110
a day you know at a volume of 10 just to

576
00:26:24,060 --> 00:26:22,330
make the person crazy and disoriented

577
00:26:27,450 --> 00:26:24,070
and to ensure that they just can't sleep

578
00:26:31,950 --> 00:26:27,460
and they use these these like military

579
00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:31,960
strength lights to so it's as bright as

580
00:26:36,150 --> 00:26:33,910
the Sun you just even if you close your

581
00:26:38,220 --> 00:26:36,160
eyes you can still see the light through

582
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:38,230
your eyelids you just can't you can't

583
00:26:45,630 --> 00:26:40,330
get comics sounds like up just sounds

584
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:45,640
like a pure hell it is hell and then

585
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:47,170
there's this cold cell where you're

586
00:26:49,810 --> 00:26:48,730
chained into that same I bolt and

587
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:49,820
ceiling

588
00:26:55,210 --> 00:26:53,510
strip naked and then every well they

589
00:26:57,700 --> 00:26:55,220
they chill the cell 250 degrees

590
00:26:59,530 --> 00:26:57,710
Fahrenheit and then every hour a CIA

591
00:27:01,960 --> 00:26:59,540
officer goes into the cell and throws a

592
00:27:04,230 --> 00:27:01,970
bucket of ice water on you and we killed

593
00:27:09,790 --> 00:27:04,240
people with that technique as well

594
00:27:11,230 --> 00:27:09,800
unreal now I read or I heard I listened

595
00:27:16,030 --> 00:27:11,240
to Dan Carlin I don't know if you ever

596
00:27:18,570 --> 00:27:16,040
listened to him yeah and I think in one

597
00:27:23,110 --> 00:27:18,580
of his shows that he mentioned that

598
00:27:26,050 --> 00:27:23,120
people were brought to actually

599
00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:26,060
prisoners were brought to a country out

600
00:27:32,590 --> 00:27:29,510
of the UN where it did not have any

601
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:32,600
torture statutes and were worked on

602
00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:34,850
there have you ever heard of anything

603
00:27:43,030 --> 00:27:39,710
like that uh I've not heard of a country

604
00:27:45,010 --> 00:27:43,040
outside the United Nations no we

605
00:27:47,110 --> 00:27:45,020
certainly had secret prisons I mean like

606
00:27:52,090 --> 00:27:47,120
an archipelago of secret prisons around

607
00:27:55,150 --> 00:27:52,100
the world okay when someone is enhanced

608
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:55,160
interrogated as they say how do they

609
00:28:00,760 --> 00:27:57,170
monitor it I heard you say something

610
00:28:03,580 --> 00:28:00,770
about you know that has to be done a

611
00:28:05,710 --> 00:28:03,590
certain way but how do how they kept in

612
00:28:09,690 --> 00:28:05,720
check so some someone just doesn't go

613
00:28:12,460 --> 00:28:09,700
berserk and and you know kill someone

614
00:28:14,470 --> 00:28:12,470
that's a good question um and and they

615
00:28:16,900 --> 00:28:14,480
were supposed to monitor it they had

616
00:28:19,330 --> 00:28:16,910
physicians from the CIA's office of

617
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:19,340
medical services there to act like dr.

618
00:28:24,190 --> 00:28:20,930
Mengele to make sure that you're still

619
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:24,200
healthy enough to keep torturing you and

620
00:28:30,340 --> 00:28:25,730
they were supposed to keep check on each

621
00:28:32,500 --> 00:28:30,350
other as as they were being tortured but

622
00:28:35,290 --> 00:28:32,510
people went overboard and there there

623
00:28:37,660 --> 00:28:35,300
are at least three prisoners that we

624
00:28:39,820 --> 00:28:37,670
know were killed by CIA officers or CIA

625
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:39,830
contractors and I've seen numbers of as

626
00:28:44,230 --> 00:28:41,930
many as 18 who were killed in CIA

627
00:28:47,140 --> 00:28:44,240
custody so this this check-and-balance

628
00:28:52,350 --> 00:28:47,150
didn't really work very well I can't

629
00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:52,360
imagine being having the the mindset to

630
00:28:59,290 --> 00:28:56,510
torture someone and not empathize with

631
00:29:01,890 --> 00:28:59,300
how it must be like you know I mean it

632
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:01,900
must take a certain type of person

633
00:29:05,740 --> 00:29:03,650
almost psyche

634
00:29:09,970 --> 00:29:05,750
Radek or someone that just does has

635
00:29:13,770 --> 00:29:09,980
little care for four can you explain how

636
00:29:18,220 --> 00:29:13,780
someone can torture and walk away easily

637
00:29:20,290 --> 00:29:18,230
easily a CIA psychiatrist once told me

638
00:29:23,370 --> 00:29:20,300
that the CIA actively seeks to hire

639
00:29:26,860 --> 00:29:23,380
people who have sociopathic tendencies

640
00:29:30,190 --> 00:29:26,870
not sociopaths sociopaths have no

641
00:29:32,380 --> 00:29:30,200
conscience and easily pass a polygraph

642
00:29:34,540 --> 00:29:32,390
exam but they're they're impossible to

643
00:29:38,110 --> 00:29:34,550
control people who have sociopathic

644
00:29:40,150 --> 00:29:38,120
tendencies do have a conscience and so

645
00:29:42,130 --> 00:29:40,160
can be polygraphed but they're

646
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:42,140
comfortable working in moral legal and

647
00:29:47,590 --> 00:29:43,610
ethical gray areas

648
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:47,600
the problem is sociopaths are constantly

649
00:29:50,890 --> 00:29:49,250
slipping through the cracks and it's

650
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:50,900
because they can pass that polygraph

651
00:29:58,960 --> 00:29:56,570
exam so yeah you know psychologists will

652
00:30:01,240 --> 00:29:58,970
tell you that it's it's the sociopath

653
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:01,250
who rises to the top of corporate

654
00:30:06,190 --> 00:30:04,610
structures in in business in the

655
00:30:08,860 --> 00:30:06,200
business world well the same thing

656
00:30:10,690 --> 00:30:08,870
happens in government it's the sociopath

657
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:10,700
who makes his way to the top of the

658
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:12,410
structure because he's comfortable

659
00:30:17,500 --> 00:30:14,570
stepping on people to further his own

660
00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:17,510
career the same thing happens in the CIA

661
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:19,910
it's the lunatics who end up getting

662
00:30:23,710 --> 00:30:21,710
promoted and end up running the place

663
00:30:25,660 --> 00:30:23,720
it's the lunatics who become the

664
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:25,670
torturers and then go home and play with

665
00:30:30,220 --> 00:30:27,170
their kids and play with their doggin

666
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:30,230
and sleep soundly at night it's because

667
00:30:37,330 --> 00:30:32,690
they're sociopaths well I guess that

668
00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:37,340
sadly makes sense you know I I was

669
00:30:41,950 --> 00:30:40,310
really surprised reading things I

670
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:41,960
mentioned you this real quickly before

671
00:30:48,850 --> 00:30:45,110
we started the show and that was how the

672
00:30:51,370 --> 00:30:48,860
Obama administration kind of surpassed

673
00:30:55,330 --> 00:30:51,380
things that I used to be really upset

674
00:30:57,550 --> 00:30:55,340
that Bush was doing and how did all that

675
00:31:01,120 --> 00:30:57,560
as a Democrat and everything how you

676
00:31:03,970 --> 00:31:01,130
need just it was it was kind of shocking

677
00:31:06,430 --> 00:31:03,980
especially and I don't know the name of

678
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:06,440
the act or whatever it's called but an

679
00:31:14,830 --> 00:31:10,130
American citizen can be assassinated on

680
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:14,840
foreign soil without without any you

681
00:31:20,830 --> 00:31:17,450
know trial or you know conviction

682
00:31:24,129 --> 00:31:20,840
or anything yeah yeah and Eric Holder

683
00:31:27,129 --> 00:31:24,139
said that in a in an open congressional

684
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:27,139
hearing on Capitol Hill he also said in

685
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:29,330
response to a question from Senator Ron

686
00:31:35,860 --> 00:31:32,450
Wyden that if the president declared an

687
00:31:39,909 --> 00:31:35,870
American citizen in the United States to

688
00:31:41,769 --> 00:31:39,919
be an imminent threat that the

689
00:31:43,930 --> 00:31:41,779
government could kill that American

690
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:43,940
without benefit of trial in the United

691
00:31:48,970 --> 00:31:46,130
States I haven't heard that oh my god

692
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:48,980
Wow now that's he was saying that that's

693
00:31:52,210 --> 00:31:50,570
a legal theory that the Obama

694
00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:52,220
administration had they they hadn't

695
00:31:56,950 --> 00:31:54,080
actually killed anybody on American soil

696
00:31:59,529 --> 00:31:56,960
but they claimed legal justification for

697
00:32:02,649 --> 00:31:59,539
doing it had they decided to do it the

698
00:32:07,389 --> 00:32:02,659
thing about these these uh these laws

699
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:07,399
that are created is that they're once

700
00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:10,850
they're there they're there and they can

701
00:32:16,629 --> 00:32:12,710
be able attacked

702
00:32:21,850 --> 00:32:16,639
yeah the Patriot Act for instance that's

703
00:32:25,830 --> 00:32:21,860
that changed everything and how did that

704
00:32:29,409 --> 00:32:25,840
affect what you you were doing

705
00:32:32,470 --> 00:32:29,419
it didn't really because um it was

706
00:32:35,799 --> 00:32:32,480
almost entirely domestically focused it

707
00:32:39,490 --> 00:32:35,809
drastically changed the way the FBI did

708
00:32:41,259 --> 00:32:39,500
its job and of course we created the

709
00:32:44,379 --> 00:32:41,269
Department of Homeland Security at the

710
00:32:48,669 --> 00:32:44,389
same time which was really revolutionary

711
00:32:50,139 --> 00:32:48,679
in that in that it gave it gave law

712
00:32:52,419 --> 00:32:50,149
enforcement authority more law

713
00:32:55,139 --> 00:32:52,429
enforcement authority to one person than

714
00:32:58,539 --> 00:32:55,149
at any other time in American history

715
00:33:03,129 --> 00:32:58,549
for me it really didn't it didn't change

716
00:33:05,710 --> 00:33:03,139
the job my job being overseas but as an

717
00:33:08,889 --> 00:33:05,720
American citizen like anybody else in

718
00:33:10,659 --> 00:33:08,899
this country I objected to a lot of the

719
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:10,669
Patriot Act tenants just because I

720
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:14,570
believed that that it was a it was a

721
00:33:18,190 --> 00:33:16,610
whittling away of my civil liberties and

722
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:18,200
and I thought you know this is something

723
00:33:22,060 --> 00:33:20,330
we ought to be debating in Congress not

724
00:33:24,279 --> 00:33:22,070
not pushing through in the middle of the

725
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:24,289
night so nobody notices and then that's

726
00:33:29,930 --> 00:33:26,690
exactly how and I have the feeling that

727
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:29,940
our our civil liberties our Vantage

728
00:33:34,460 --> 00:33:32,250
more and more and I just have a feeling

729
00:33:37,490 --> 00:33:34,470
that that's kind of like on the track

730
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:37,500
Ron it seems to be oh it is you know

731
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:39,330
when when the President and and the

732
00:33:44,779 --> 00:33:41,330
Attorney General of the United States

733
00:33:47,570 --> 00:33:44,789
talked about using the Espionage Act to

734
00:33:50,269 --> 00:33:47,580
punish journalists who publish

735
00:33:51,919 --> 00:33:50,279
classified information I mean that's

736
00:33:53,060 --> 00:33:51,929
that's the end of our constitutional

737
00:33:59,210 --> 00:33:53,070
rights as we know them

738
00:34:00,350 --> 00:33:59,220
okay well along those lines we hear you

739
00:34:01,820 --> 00:34:00,360
know I'm going to take some flak from

740
00:34:06,940 --> 00:34:01,830
this because I'm going to talk a little

741
00:34:13,490 --> 00:34:06,950
bit about Trump but the fake news thing

742
00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:13,500
it's it's almost like it's similar to

743
00:34:23,059 --> 00:34:18,510
how a dictator would take down the media

744
00:34:26,210 --> 00:34:23,069
in a way now again I'm going to take a

745
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:26,220
lot of flack for saying this but what do

746
00:34:33,139 --> 00:34:31,050
you feel about the way he has well how I

747
00:34:36,139 --> 00:34:33,149
should put it this way how do you feel

748
00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:36,149
the media has treated Trump and how do

749
00:34:42,050 --> 00:34:39,169
you think Trump is treating the media I

750
00:34:43,879 --> 00:34:42,060
think the media have been hard on Trump

751
00:34:46,849 --> 00:34:43,889
I thought the media had been hard on

752
00:34:49,450 --> 00:34:46,859
Clinton that's I mean the media was hard

753
00:34:53,119 --> 00:34:49,460
on me that's just what they do

754
00:34:54,710 --> 00:34:53,129
you know there might when I was a little

755
00:34:58,069 --> 00:34:54,720
kid my grandfather used to say that

756
00:35:02,059 --> 00:34:58,079
there are no worse people on earth than

757
00:35:05,599 --> 00:35:02,069
doctors and priests and I would say now

758
00:35:08,030 --> 00:35:05,609
that I'm an adult in my 50s that there

759
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:08,040
are no worse people on earth than

760
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:11,970
journalists and attorneys uh journalists

761
00:35:16,010 --> 00:35:14,130
you know many of them are scumbags it's

762
00:35:18,890 --> 00:35:16,020
they see it as their job to be scumbags

763
00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:18,900
and and I think that most of them

764
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:20,880
actually are seeking the truth there's

765
00:35:24,500 --> 00:35:22,890
probably a political bent one way or the

766
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:24,510
other to the left of the to the right

767
00:35:28,579 --> 00:35:26,130
just because they're human like

768
00:35:30,770 --> 00:35:28,589
everybody else is but yeah sure Trump

769
00:35:33,319 --> 00:35:30,780
has had a tough time with a breast so

770
00:35:35,180 --> 00:35:33,329
did Hillary Clinton um so I don't think

771
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:35,190
he's getting any special treatment

772
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:37,650
special anti Trump treatment not at all

773
00:35:42,349 --> 00:35:40,530
okay and how do you think what do you

774
00:35:43,610 --> 00:35:42,359
think about his reaction by just calling

775
00:35:45,770 --> 00:35:43,620
them fake news

776
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:45,780
like you know the book I think that's

777
00:35:53,450 --> 00:35:48,720
actually damaging the country you know

778
00:35:55,610 --> 00:35:53,460
the the press is is just as important in

779
00:35:59,260 --> 00:35:55,620
the governance of the country as the

780
00:36:03,260 --> 00:35:59,270
three branches of government are and to

781
00:36:05,810 --> 00:36:03,270
devalue the press as an institution I

782
00:36:08,660 --> 00:36:05,820
think really does a disservice to the

783
00:36:12,170 --> 00:36:08,670
whole country I agree that's that's

784
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:12,180
really good now what do you say to I've

785
00:36:17,630 --> 00:36:14,130
heard the term many times that we

786
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:17,640
created Isis and do you think that

787
00:36:25,870 --> 00:36:20,490
America does indeed create you know

788
00:36:29,390 --> 00:36:25,880
terrorist groups no um now that's that's

789
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:29,400
conspiratorial nonsense what happened

790
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:33,930
was um we invaded Iraq which was which

791
00:36:39,470 --> 00:36:37,170
was stupid and bad policy and

792
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:39,480
short-sighted and illegal under

793
00:36:44,090 --> 00:36:41,490
international law but we did it we

794
00:36:48,020 --> 00:36:44,100
invaded Iraq we overthrew Saddam Hussein

795
00:36:51,230 --> 00:36:48,030
and many of the al Qaeda fighters in

796
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:51,240
Afghanistan and Pakistan ran to Iraq to

797
00:36:56,210 --> 00:36:53,970
fight the Americans there and so we

798
00:36:58,130 --> 00:36:56,220
started rounding them up and they they

799
00:37:03,580 --> 00:36:58,140
formed this branch of al-qaeda called al

800
00:37:06,020 --> 00:37:03,590
Qaeda in Iraq right and and we arrested

801
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:06,030
hundreds of them and put them in

802
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:07,650
military prisons all around the country

803
00:37:13,390 --> 00:37:09,570
well it was in one of those military

804
00:37:15,980 --> 00:37:13,400
prisons that Omar al-baghdadi and

805
00:37:18,470 --> 00:37:15,990
several of the other people who became

806
00:37:20,780 --> 00:37:18,480
his lieutenants in Isis got together

807
00:37:23,260 --> 00:37:20,790
they actually met in an American

808
00:37:29,510 --> 00:37:23,270
military prison outside of Baghdad and

809
00:37:32,150 --> 00:37:29,520
decided to form this group Isis um they

810
00:37:34,190 --> 00:37:32,160
believed that al-qaeda was not radical

811
00:37:36,350 --> 00:37:34,200
enough that al-qaeda wasn't fighting

812
00:37:37,790 --> 00:37:36,360
hard enough and so that's why they

813
00:37:42,140 --> 00:37:37,800
wanted to go their own way and create

814
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:42,150
this new group so did we create Isis no

815
00:37:46,220 --> 00:37:44,640
we didn't we it wasn't a bunch of white

816
00:37:47,450 --> 00:37:46,230
guys sitting around the table saying you

817
00:37:49,190 --> 00:37:47,460
know what we should do we should create

818
00:37:54,490 --> 00:37:49,200
this terrorist group to fight ourselves

819
00:37:56,430 --> 00:37:54,500
and you know no but our stupid policy

820
00:38:02,400 --> 00:37:56,440
resulted in the creation

821
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:02,410
of Isis I see okay now for what you went

822
00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:06,240
through and for what you basically

823
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:07,599
exposed

824
00:38:15,450 --> 00:38:11,650
did you actually change anything yeah

825
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:15,460
yeah you know what I'm actually most

826
00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:17,170
proud of this through this whole

827
00:38:30,359 --> 00:38:26,310
nightmare in in 2015 Congress passed the

828
00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:30,369
McCain fine Stein amendment which which

829
00:38:37,620 --> 00:38:34,089
formally banned torture in the United

830
00:38:39,660 --> 00:38:37,630
States permanently and said that that

831
00:38:41,940 --> 00:38:39,670
the CIA is allowed only to use the

832
00:38:45,210 --> 00:38:41,950
techniques that are outlined in the Army

833
00:38:47,339 --> 00:38:45,220
Field Manual so you know what we weren't

834
00:38:50,849 --> 00:38:47,349
even having a national conversation

835
00:38:53,339 --> 00:38:50,859
about torture until I went on ABC News

836
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:53,349
and even though the price that I paid

837
00:38:58,500 --> 00:38:56,170
has been very high that was all worth it

838
00:39:02,460 --> 00:38:58,510
because now torture is illegal in this

839
00:39:04,319 --> 00:39:02,470
country could you talk about um I'm

840
00:39:09,569 --> 00:39:04,329
gonna try to say his name right Abu

841
00:39:11,790 --> 00:39:09,579
Zubaydah elucidating uh-huh yeah we

842
00:39:14,309 --> 00:39:11,800
believed in 2002 that Abu Zubaydah was

843
00:39:16,589 --> 00:39:14,319
the number three in al-qaeda that turned

844
00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:16,599
out to not be true he was still a bad

845
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:19,510
guy he was sort of a logistician for

846
00:39:26,970 --> 00:39:20,290
al-qaeda

847
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:26,980
southern Afghanistan he ran the safe

848
00:39:32,510 --> 00:39:28,690
house in Peshawar Pakistan called the

849
00:39:36,410 --> 00:39:32,520
house of martyrs he could procure

850
00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:36,420
passports and travel tickets and

851
00:39:40,620 --> 00:39:38,710
whatever it was that that al-qaeda

852
00:39:42,839 --> 00:39:40,630
fighters needed to either get in or get

853
00:39:45,359 --> 00:39:42,849
out of Afghanistan he was the guy that

854
00:39:52,309 --> 00:39:45,369
you went to but he never formally joined

855
00:39:55,290 --> 00:39:52,319
al-qaeda so in March 2002 I was the

856
00:39:58,170 --> 00:39:55,300
chief of counterterrorism operations for

857
00:40:00,059 --> 00:39:58,180
the CIA in Pakistan and I led a series

858
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:00,069
of raids that resulted in the capture of

859
00:40:06,450 --> 00:40:03,250
Abu Zubaydah and many dozens of other

860
00:40:08,839 --> 00:40:06,460
al-qaeda fighters Abu Zubaydah was that

861
00:40:11,779 --> 00:40:08,849
hurt the first high-value target that we

862
00:40:15,769 --> 00:40:11,789
captured and it was on Abu Zubaydah that

863
00:40:19,219 --> 00:40:15,779
we began the torture program and they

864
00:40:22,940 --> 00:40:19,229
now at first you reported on some news

865
00:40:24,979 --> 00:40:22,950
show that he was only tortured or he was

866
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:24,989
only waterboarded one time in a reason

867
00:40:31,069 --> 00:40:27,930
you achieved results who told you that

868
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:31,079
and uh well that's that's what the CIA

869
00:40:36,380 --> 00:40:34,890
reporting cables said see he was being

870
00:40:38,650 --> 00:40:36,390
tortured by these two contract

871
00:40:40,819 --> 00:40:38,660
psychologists named Bruce Mitchell and

872
00:40:44,349 --> 00:40:40,829
I'm sorry James Mitchell and Bruce

873
00:40:47,180 --> 00:40:44,359
Jessen and Mitchell and Jessen were

874
00:40:49,099 --> 00:40:47,190
carrying out the torture and then

875
00:40:51,109 --> 00:40:49,109
writing the reporting cables back to

876
00:40:53,630 --> 00:40:51,119
headquarters while they were saying this

877
00:40:56,509 --> 00:40:53,640
whole time you know we did it we did it

878
00:40:59,210 --> 00:40:56,519
once it worked he cracked he gave us

879
00:41:00,410 --> 00:40:59,220
this information it saved lives were

880
00:41:03,620 --> 00:41:00,420
disrupting attacks

881
00:41:06,829 --> 00:41:03,630
none of that turned out to be true they

882
00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:06,839
waterboarded him eighty three times he

883
00:41:10,910 --> 00:41:08,910
didn't give any actionable intelligence

884
00:41:17,650 --> 00:41:10,920
that saved lives are disrupted attacks

885
00:41:23,809 --> 00:41:21,859
that's our okay um he didn't give us any

886
00:41:26,269 --> 00:41:23,819
information that disrupted attacks and

887
00:41:29,390 --> 00:41:26,279
the information that he did give he had

888
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:29,400
actually given to an FBI agent several

889
00:41:35,329 --> 00:41:31,890
weeks earlier when the FBI agent was

890
00:41:38,509 --> 00:41:35,339
debriefing him so it was a lie and

891
00:41:41,749 --> 00:41:38,519
nobody knew it was a lie until April of

892
00:41:43,969 --> 00:41:41,759
2009 when the CIA inspector general's

893
00:41:44,359 --> 00:41:43,979
report was Declassified and released to

894
00:41:47,029 --> 00:41:44,369
the press

895
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:47,039
so what I was telling Brian Ross on ABC

896
00:41:52,249 --> 00:41:49,890
News in 2007 was what I had read in the

897
00:41:55,670 --> 00:41:52,259
CIA's reporting cables and at that time

898
00:41:59,120 --> 00:41:55,680
what was her stance on on torture on

899
00:42:00,950 --> 00:41:59,130
well the enhanced interrogation yeah why

900
00:42:06,249 --> 00:42:00,960
I said that there were two separate

901
00:42:09,380 --> 00:42:06,259
issues here number one um was torture

902
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:09,390
moral and ethical and I said no I said

903
00:42:13,130 --> 00:42:11,249
it's not enhanced interrogation it's a

904
00:42:16,309 --> 00:42:13,140
torture program and as torture it's

905
00:42:18,079 --> 00:42:16,319
morally wrong I was the first person to

906
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:18,089
call it torture as a matter of fact and

907
00:42:20,359 --> 00:42:19,680
then secondly I said there was a

908
00:42:22,309 --> 00:42:20,369
separate

909
00:42:24,349 --> 00:42:22,319
question about whether or not it worked

910
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:24,359
and the CIA was saying that it worked

911
00:42:32,509 --> 00:42:27,210
and that second half turned out to not

912
00:42:35,029 --> 00:42:32,519
be true unreal now can you explain the

913
00:42:40,460 --> 00:42:35,039
knowledge that you have why torture is

914
00:42:42,769 --> 00:42:40,470
not effective sure because your prisoner

915
00:42:45,380 --> 00:42:42,779
will tell you literally anything that he

916
00:42:48,529 --> 00:42:45,390
thinks you want to hear just to get you

917
00:42:51,380 --> 00:42:48,539
to stop torturing him it might be true

918
00:42:54,049 --> 00:42:51,390
information it likely will not be true

919
00:42:55,819 --> 00:42:54,059
but whether it's true or not you're

920
00:42:57,950 --> 00:42:55,829
going to have to take all this

921
00:43:00,799 --> 00:42:57,960
information and give it to a team of

922
00:43:02,569 --> 00:43:00,809
analysts to pour through it and try to

923
00:43:05,569 --> 00:43:02,579
figure out what's true and what's not

924
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:05,579
true so if the point of the torture is

925
00:43:09,980 --> 00:43:07,890
like in this ticking time bomb scenario

926
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:09,990
you know there's a there's a bomb that's

927
00:43:13,970 --> 00:43:11,970
going to go off in some major American

928
00:43:16,190 --> 00:43:13,980
city you got to get the information from

929
00:43:17,930 --> 00:43:16,200
the guy so you start torturing him and

930
00:43:19,940 --> 00:43:17,940
he gives you the information well he's

931
00:43:22,730 --> 00:43:19,950
going to give you some kind of

932
00:43:25,549 --> 00:43:22,740
information probably way too much

933
00:43:27,950 --> 00:43:25,559
information 90% of which is going to be

934
00:43:29,779 --> 00:43:27,960
false by the time you analyze it and

935
00:43:31,970 --> 00:43:29,789
figure out what it is that's true and

936
00:43:32,829 --> 00:43:31,980
what's not true the bombs gone off and

937
00:43:38,359 --> 00:43:32,839
everybody's dead

938
00:43:41,299 --> 00:43:38,369
well what was the exact charge that was

939
00:43:43,989 --> 00:43:41,309
the felony that gave you the 23 months

940
00:43:47,029 --> 00:43:43,999
and I you I know you had to take it as a

941
00:43:49,370 --> 00:43:47,039
plea bargain so I'm not saying that you

942
00:43:52,789 --> 00:43:49,380
actually did it but what is the charge

943
00:43:57,489 --> 00:43:52,799
okay it was violating the intelligence

944
00:43:59,749 --> 00:43:57,499
identities Protection Act of 1982 I

945
00:44:03,170 --> 00:43:59,759
confirmed the name of a former colleague

946
00:44:06,829 --> 00:44:03,180
to a reporter who never made the name

947
00:44:08,420 --> 00:44:06,839
public but and even though that happens

948
00:44:10,989 --> 00:44:08,430
in Washington like all the time

949
00:44:13,519 --> 00:44:10,999
including in today's Washington Post

950
00:44:17,269 --> 00:44:13,529
they decided to prosecute me for that

951
00:44:20,269 --> 00:44:17,279
and this was actually an overt right it

952
00:44:22,099 --> 00:44:20,279
wasn't a covert it was an overt someone

953
00:44:24,019 --> 00:44:22,109
that had retired that was one of the

954
00:44:26,059 --> 00:44:24,029
charges that I'll like on it okay they

955
00:44:28,370 --> 00:44:26,069
tried to charge me for outing an overt

956
00:44:31,099 --> 00:44:28,380
employee and it's like he's over he's on

957
00:44:32,809 --> 00:44:31,109
LinkedIn as a CIA employee you know

958
00:44:36,499 --> 00:44:32,819
he gave a speech at James Madison

959
00:44:39,170 --> 00:44:36,509
University as a CIA employee so the

960
00:44:42,979 --> 00:44:39,180
judge actually threw that charge out Wow

961
00:44:47,140 --> 00:44:42,989
now it must be you must really go under

962
00:44:50,779 --> 00:44:47,150
a lot a lot of emotional stress

963
00:44:52,700 --> 00:44:50,789
depression all that can you explain what

964
00:44:55,509 --> 00:44:52,710
you were going through and was it the

965
00:44:58,670 --> 00:44:55,519
unknown that was the worst part of it oh

966
00:45:01,329 --> 00:44:58,680
yeah it's the unknown that that does you

967
00:45:04,039 --> 00:45:01,339
in you know Aaron Schwartz was arrested

968
00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:04,049
and they did charge stacking with Aaron

969
00:45:09,079 --> 00:45:05,730
Schwartz - he was the one of the

970
00:45:11,150 --> 00:45:09,089
founders of BuzzFeed and they charged

971
00:45:14,269 --> 00:45:11,160
him with something like 20 felonies

972
00:45:16,519 --> 00:45:14,279
related to internet fraud or wire fraud

973
00:45:18,710 --> 00:45:16,529
or something for accessing some it's

974
00:45:21,710 --> 00:45:18,720
some hacking related charge well the

975
00:45:24,319 --> 00:45:21,720
poor guy was like 25 years old 26 years

976
00:45:26,989 --> 00:45:24,329
old he's just been charged with 15 or 20

977
00:45:30,289 --> 00:45:26,999
felonies and he went home and and blew

978
00:45:32,269 --> 00:45:30,299
his brains out and you know reporter

979
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:32,279
asked me if I was surprised and I said I

980
00:45:36,620 --> 00:45:35,130
said no the way they they charge you

981
00:45:38,809 --> 00:45:36,630
with these multiple felonies and you're

982
00:45:40,940 --> 00:45:38,819
looking at you know 75 years in prison

983
00:45:43,069 --> 00:45:40,950
100 years in prison I'm surprised more

984
00:45:45,799 --> 00:45:43,079
people don't kill themselves when I was

985
00:45:49,069 --> 00:45:45,809
first charged I was looking at 45 years

986
00:45:51,380 --> 00:45:49,079
in prison why I'm 52 years old I was 48

987
00:45:53,450 --> 00:45:51,390
years old at the time looking at 45

988
00:45:57,589 --> 00:45:53,460
years in prison that's a death sentence

989
00:46:00,049 --> 00:45:57,599
but that's the point they want you to

990
00:46:01,970 --> 00:46:00,059
face a death sentence so that you take a

991
00:46:03,890 --> 00:46:01,980
plea and they get a conviction that's

992
00:46:06,829 --> 00:46:03,900
how they get promoted that's how they

993
00:46:09,529 --> 00:46:06,839
get budget increases so that's the way

994
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:09,539
they do help do you think of going back

995
00:46:14,420 --> 00:46:11,970
to the the topic I shouldn't talk about

996
00:46:16,910 --> 00:46:14,430
but do you think in today's world with

997
00:46:18,589 --> 00:46:16,920
the present administration that anything

998
00:46:24,019 --> 00:46:18,599
would be different and what happened to

999
00:46:27,559 --> 00:46:24,029
you you know this may sound crazy to you

1000
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:27,569
but yeah I do um you know there's a

1001
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:29,730
there's a lot to criticize Jeff sessions

1002
00:46:37,370 --> 00:46:35,130
about mandatory minimum sentencing drug

1003
00:46:39,049 --> 00:46:37,380
sentencing the use of private prisons I

1004
00:46:42,700 --> 00:46:39,059
think he's a terrible Attorney General

1005
00:46:44,530 --> 00:46:42,710
but he did not have this this this

1006
00:46:50,510 --> 00:46:44,540
laser-like

1007
00:46:52,220 --> 00:46:50,520
Espionage Act to prosecute

1008
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:52,230
whistleblowers like Eric Holder did I

1009
00:46:59,720 --> 00:46:55,890
think Eric Holder was was one of the the

1010
00:47:02,090 --> 00:46:59,730
great menaces to our civil liberties

1011
00:47:04,340 --> 00:47:02,100
over the last half a century I think

1012
00:47:06,290 --> 00:47:04,350
honestly and I and I say this from the

1013
00:47:08,690 --> 00:47:06,300
bottom of my heart I think Eric Holder

1014
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:08,700
was one of the worst attorneys general

1015
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:11,930
in in American history in terms of

1016
00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:14,610
taking away our civil rights and our

1017
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:18,510
civil liberties so now you know there's

1018
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:20,130
a lot of rhetoric coming out of the

1019
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:21,690
Trump White House about these issues

1020
00:47:26,570 --> 00:47:23,520
especially as they relate to the

1021
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:26,580
journalists but no I I'm not seeing I'm

1022
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:28,770
not seeing investigations initiated by

1023
00:47:33,590 --> 00:47:30,210
the Trump administration against

1024
00:47:36,050 --> 00:47:33,600
whistleblowers now not not yet anyway at

1025
00:47:38,540 --> 00:47:36,060
one time or I thought at the beginning

1026
00:47:41,810 --> 00:47:38,550
of Obama's administration that he was

1027
00:47:43,910 --> 00:47:41,820
encouraging whistleblowing did you ever

1028
00:47:46,460 --> 00:47:43,920
hear that well you know the sad truth is

1029
00:47:49,460 --> 00:47:46,470
during the the Obama administration we

1030
00:47:52,550 --> 00:47:49,470
passed a whistleblower protection act

1031
00:47:54,830 --> 00:47:52,560
but it specifically exempted national

1032
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:54,840
security whistleblowers from coverage so

1033
00:47:59,180 --> 00:47:55,770
Barack Obama

1034
00:48:02,000 --> 00:47:59,190
not only did literally nothing in terms

1035
00:48:04,190 --> 00:48:02,010
of the law to help whistleblowers he

1036
00:48:07,370 --> 00:48:04,200
actively pursued whistleblowers for

1037
00:48:09,830 --> 00:48:07,380
prosecution and how many whistleblowers

1038
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:09,840
that you're aware of and when it comes

1039
00:48:19,090 --> 00:48:11,760
to national security while he was in

1040
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:19,100
office eight Wow and and prior to that

1041
00:48:26,870 --> 00:48:25,170
none Wow you know in history zero well

1042
00:48:29,180 --> 00:48:26,880
well you know when I take that back um

1043
00:48:32,810 --> 00:48:29,190
the next administration tried to charge

1044
00:48:36,950 --> 00:48:32,820
Daniel Ellsberg with Sol summit but but

1045
00:48:39,830 --> 00:48:36,960
the the key fell apart right right so

1046
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:39,840
one one in American history amazing now

1047
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:43,050
I do want to talk about what prison was

1048
00:48:48,260 --> 00:48:45,690
like for you in just a minute here but I

1049
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:48,270
also want to ask you your thoughts on

1050
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:51,090
two different people first of all

1051
00:48:57,470 --> 00:48:54,960
Chelsea Manning recently released I

1052
00:49:01,609 --> 00:48:57,480
believe very recently right

1053
00:49:03,589 --> 00:49:01,619
yeah on the 17th I think it was and so

1054
00:49:06,020 --> 00:49:03,599
what it yeah man what were your thought

1055
00:49:07,430 --> 00:49:06,030
I'm thrilled I'm thrilled for Chelsea

1056
00:49:09,530 --> 00:49:07,440
Manning one of the last things I did

1057
00:49:12,559 --> 00:49:09,540
before I went to prison was I I tweeted

1058
00:49:15,289 --> 00:49:12,569
that I had fought as hard as I could and

1059
00:49:17,210 --> 00:49:15,299
I just couldn't fight anymore the

1060
00:49:19,460 --> 00:49:17,220
president elected not to give me any

1061
00:49:21,109 --> 00:49:19,470
kind of relief but that I hoped he would

1062
00:49:25,700 --> 00:49:21,119
give Chelsea Manning some kind of relief

1063
00:49:27,230 --> 00:49:25,710
and and he did finally you know Chelsea

1064
00:49:29,150 --> 00:49:27,240
Manning I think was the victim of

1065
00:49:30,950 --> 00:49:29,160
torture solitary confinement as

1066
00:49:32,450 --> 00:49:30,960
practiced in the United States has been

1067
00:49:34,730 --> 00:49:32,460
declared as a form of torture by the

1068
00:49:36,799 --> 00:49:34,740
United Nations and not only did Chelsea

1069
00:49:39,319 --> 00:49:36,809
Manning spend long stretches of her

1070
00:49:42,230 --> 00:49:39,329
sentence of her seven plus year sentence

1071
00:49:45,559 --> 00:49:42,240
in solitary confinement but she did so

1072
00:49:49,819 --> 00:49:45,569
with forced nudity and that was meant

1073
00:49:51,140 --> 00:49:49,829
just to humiliate and to control so it's

1074
00:49:53,420 --> 00:49:51,150
a wonderful thing that she got out of

1075
00:49:58,039 --> 00:49:53,430
prison okay and the next one is Edward

1076
00:50:00,920 --> 00:49:58,049
Edward Snowden oh I think ed Snowden is

1077
00:50:04,370 --> 00:50:00,930
a bona fide American Hero we would have

1078
00:50:08,859 --> 00:50:04,380
no idea that the government was spying

1079
00:50:12,859 --> 00:50:08,869
on us had snowed not not told us that

1080
00:50:14,750 --> 00:50:12,869
when I was in prison I wrote I wrote an

1081
00:50:16,579 --> 00:50:14,760
open letter that was published in the

1082
00:50:17,630 --> 00:50:16,589
was published everywhere but it started

1083
00:50:19,490 --> 00:50:17,640
in the Huffington Post

1084
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:19,500
and then I followed it up with a private

1085
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:21,690
letter we share several attorneys and

1086
00:50:26,539 --> 00:50:24,450
have some mutual friends so I passed in

1087
00:50:29,150 --> 00:50:26,549
this private letter with some lessons

1088
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:29,160
that I learned in my own experience the

1089
00:50:33,710 --> 00:50:31,530
most important of which is don't come

1090
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:33,720
home you're charged in the Eastern

1091
00:50:38,930 --> 00:50:35,970
District of Virginia you will not get a

1092
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:38,940
fair trial they will try to lock you up

1093
00:50:43,940 --> 00:50:41,450
in a prison for the rest of your life

1094
00:50:46,510 --> 00:50:43,950
why don't you do like a call and see if

1095
00:50:50,059 --> 00:50:46,520
we can get good a question out of it no

1096
00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:50,069
it's not my house

1097
00:50:57,380 --> 00:50:53,569
oh that's okay it's not a big deal

1098
00:51:02,930 --> 00:50:57,390
so you have has he actually communicated

1099
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:02,940
with you through the lawyers yes we we

1100
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:04,530
never put anything in writing our

1101
00:51:11,330 --> 00:51:09,210
messages are all verbal right right I I

1102
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:11,340
agree you know

1103
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:14,160
said that a few times and kind of had

1104
00:51:20,420 --> 00:51:18,210
people harshly disagree with me that I

1105
00:51:21,380 --> 00:51:20,430
think it's a really good thing that he's

1106
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:21,390
exposed I

1107
00:51:25,850 --> 00:51:23,970
I personally you know I understand

1108
00:51:28,610 --> 00:51:25,860
there's national national security and

1109
00:51:32,780 --> 00:51:28,620
understand that we are in really strange

1110
00:51:35,900 --> 00:51:32,790
times but I also think that the truth

1111
00:51:38,930 --> 00:51:35,910
should be known especially when it comes

1112
00:51:39,770 --> 00:51:38,940
to what you mentioned earlier our civil

1113
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:39,780
liberties

1114
00:51:44,990 --> 00:51:41,850
you know vanishing it it should be known

1115
00:51:46,670 --> 00:51:45,000
and so in that case you know maybe there

1116
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:46,680
were some things that maybe he shouldn't

1117
00:51:52,370 --> 00:51:51,210
have exposed I don't know but I yeah we

1118
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:52,380
don't we don't have to agree with

1119
00:51:57,230 --> 00:51:54,480
absolutely everything he did like for

1120
00:51:59,180 --> 00:51:57,240
example I I want the NSA to intercept

1121
00:52:01,400 --> 00:51:59,190
Angela Merkel's cellphone that's what

1122
00:52:03,620 --> 00:52:01,410
NSA is supposed to do every country does

1123
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:03,630
that to every other country and if it

1124
00:52:08,060 --> 00:52:05,490
gives us a leg up and you know treaty

1125
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:08,070
negotiations or or business negotiations

1126
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:10,890
then that's great but we have to look at

1127
00:52:15,770 --> 00:52:12,210
the bigger picture of what he did and

1128
00:52:17,750 --> 00:52:15,780
what he did was positively patriotic we

1129
00:52:22,700 --> 00:52:17,760
should celebrate him for it I agree I

1130
00:52:26,450 --> 00:52:22,710
agree now let's talk about the people

1131
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:26,460
out there that have done either exactly

1132
00:52:31,550 --> 00:52:29,370
what you have done or done I know there

1133
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:31,560
was a movie called uh what was it dark

1134
00:52:37,100 --> 00:52:33,930
thirty or I'm trying to remember than

1135
00:52:38,660 --> 00:52:37,110
zero dark thirty I couldn't watch it I

1136
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:38,670
tried to watch it I just couldn't watch

1137
00:52:45,050 --> 00:52:41,370
it but but I understand there was some

1138
00:52:48,020 --> 00:52:45,060
classified information leaked to the to

1139
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:48,030
the either the producer or something of

1140
00:52:53,930 --> 00:52:50,610
that movie to the producer into the

1141
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:53,940
writer Mark Boal in Kathryn Bigelow yeah

1142
00:52:59,270 --> 00:52:55,650
Leon Panetta leaked classified

1143
00:53:01,460 --> 00:52:59,280
information to Mark Boal and Michael

1144
00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:01,470
Morell who was the deputy deputy

1145
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:05,730
director the CIA gave gave the producer

1146
00:53:12,380 --> 00:53:08,970
director a classified briefing standing

1147
00:53:15,950 --> 00:53:12,390
over a classified mock-up of the bin

1148
00:53:18,230 --> 00:53:15,960
Laden compound in addition there were

1149
00:53:21,260 --> 00:53:18,240
several CIA analysts who had briefed

1150
00:53:24,650 --> 00:53:21,270
them and who then accepted gifts in

1151
00:53:27,410 --> 00:53:24,660
exchange which is also a crime uh

1152
00:53:30,670 --> 00:53:27,420
furthermore leon panetta then in an

1153
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:30,680
attaboy speech in the cia's auditorium

1154
00:53:39,770 --> 00:53:35,010
revealed the name of the Navy SEAL who

1155
00:53:42,140 --> 00:53:39,780
killed bin Laden to the crowd which

1156
00:53:46,220 --> 00:53:42,150
included people who had worked on this

1157
00:53:48,770 --> 00:53:46,230
film this was a classified setting so

1158
00:53:51,559 --> 00:53:48,780
why were those crimes never prosecuted

1159
00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:51,569
David Petraeus is worse you know I was

1160
00:53:57,230 --> 00:53:53,510
accused of confirming the name of a

1161
00:53:59,750 --> 00:53:57,240
former CIA officer David Petraeus past

1162
00:54:03,349 --> 00:53:59,760
the name the names of ten covert CIA

1163
00:54:06,829 --> 00:54:03,359
officers to his adulterous girlfriend to

1164
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:06,839
try to impress her they did it for sex

1165
00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:11,490
and he got a misdemeanor charge 18

1166
00:54:17,870 --> 00:54:15,119
months unsupervised probation and no

1167
00:54:19,819 --> 00:54:17,880
jail time so where's the where's the

1168
00:54:22,549 --> 00:54:19,829
justice there there's another

1169
00:54:25,579 --> 00:54:22,559
disgruntled CIA officer who gave the

1170
00:54:28,130 --> 00:54:25,589
names of seven covert officers to the

1171
00:54:30,109 --> 00:54:28,140
same reporter that I talked to but they

1172
00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:30,119
didn't charge him because he didn't blow

1173
00:54:37,099 --> 00:54:32,730
the whistle on the torture program this

1174
00:54:40,339 --> 00:54:37,109
was all very much very much so so um you

1175
00:54:44,690 --> 00:54:40,349
know and I understand that a president

1176
00:54:47,180 --> 00:54:44,700
can basically declassify anything that

1177
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:47,190
he wants to but what how do you feel

1178
00:54:54,799 --> 00:54:51,450
about the recent you know talk with

1179
00:54:56,240 --> 00:54:54,809
Russia a Russian official yeah well what

1180
00:54:59,210 --> 00:54:56,250
President Trump did was not

1181
00:55:01,670 --> 00:54:59,220
declassification he just blurted out

1182
00:55:03,260 --> 00:55:01,680
classified information you can't you

1183
00:55:05,870 --> 00:55:03,270
can't prosecute a president for that

1184
00:55:07,519 --> 00:55:05,880
they're they have ultimate authority to

1185
00:55:11,359 --> 00:55:07,529
do you know whatever they want to do

1186
00:55:13,700 --> 00:55:11,369
with the information but there's there's

1187
00:55:16,370 --> 00:55:13,710
a process for passing classified

1188
00:55:19,069 --> 00:55:16,380
information to a foreign government you

1189
00:55:20,420 --> 00:55:19,079
you take the original report you take

1190
00:55:24,890 --> 00:55:20,430
the information that you want to pass

1191
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:24,900
out of it you put it on a clean fresh

1192
00:55:29,269 --> 00:55:27,450
piece of paper you write secret

1193
00:55:31,279 --> 00:55:29,279
releasable - and then the name of the

1194
00:55:32,809 --> 00:55:31,289
country at the top and the bottom you

1195
00:55:35,450 --> 00:55:32,819
make sure that it doesn't reveal any

1196
00:55:37,789 --> 00:55:35,460
sources and methods and then you pass it

1197
00:55:38,210 --> 00:55:37,799
through official channels but what the

1198
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:38,220
present

1199
00:55:43,250 --> 00:55:40,290
it was he just blurted out this highly

1200
00:55:45,770 --> 00:55:43,260
classified information that came from a

1201
00:55:47,750 --> 00:55:45,780
third country now when you pass when you

1202
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:47,760
pass another country's information to a

1203
00:55:51,830 --> 00:55:49,890
third country you have to get the

1204
00:55:54,530 --> 00:55:51,840
originating countries permission to do

1205
00:55:56,030 --> 00:55:54,540
it in advance and he didn't do that he

1206
00:55:58,730 --> 00:55:56,040
just blurted and that was the most

1207
00:56:01,480 --> 00:55:58,740
damaging part of it wasn't it the other

1208
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:01,490
country it was not having a commission

1209
00:56:06,410 --> 00:56:03,810
because then they're less likely to

1210
00:56:08,089 --> 00:56:06,420
share whatever secret it is yeah they're

1211
00:56:10,310 --> 00:56:08,099
less likely to share in the future it

1212
00:56:14,450 --> 00:56:10,320
damages the the bilateral leaves on

1213
00:56:16,940 --> 00:56:14,460
relationship now let's talk about your

1214
00:56:18,710 --> 00:56:16,950
stint in prison and first of all you

1215
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:18,720
mentioned earlier that you have five

1216
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:22,890
kids I can't imagine being separated

1217
00:56:28,220 --> 00:56:26,010
from your kids and you know day to day

1218
00:56:32,839 --> 00:56:28,230
missing their birthdays Christmas all

1219
00:56:36,770 --> 00:56:32,849
that how can you not be bitter or are

1220
00:56:37,580 --> 00:56:36,780
you bitter no no one I'm not bitter

1221
00:56:39,710 --> 00:56:37,590
actually

1222
00:56:42,020 --> 00:56:39,720
I've worked hard on this and it's

1223
00:56:43,849 --> 00:56:42,030
because you know you come out of prison

1224
00:56:45,859 --> 00:56:43,859
and you think you can step right back

1225
00:56:48,349 --> 00:56:45,869
into your life again and you can't you

1226
00:56:50,810 --> 00:56:48,359
deal with depression you deal with anger

1227
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:50,820
issues you deal with PTSD which

1228
00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:53,609
everybody has when they come out but I

1229
00:56:59,359 --> 00:56:57,210
made it I made a decision early on in

1230
00:57:01,430 --> 00:56:59,369
this whole process that I was not going

1231
00:57:04,089 --> 00:57:01,440
to be bitter because it wouldn't get me

1232
00:57:07,130 --> 00:57:04,099
anything if I dwell on this and say oh

1233
00:57:09,260 --> 00:57:07,140
poor me I've been wronged didn't look

1234
00:57:13,460 --> 00:57:09,270
what they did to me that doesn't help me

1235
00:57:15,650 --> 00:57:13,470
in any way and so I decided I was truly

1236
00:57:16,700 --> 00:57:15,660
going to put this behind me this book

1237
00:57:19,820 --> 00:57:16,710
was therapeutic

1238
00:57:21,770 --> 00:57:19,830
it helped me work out work through a lot

1239
00:57:26,390 --> 00:57:21,780
of issues and I think it's funny at the

1240
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:26,400
same time and and I've just been working

1241
00:57:30,079 --> 00:57:28,770
on on new opportunities that I've had

1242
00:57:32,900 --> 00:57:30,089
that's what I'm doing here in Los

1243
00:57:36,230 --> 00:57:32,910
Angeles right now that's really an

1244
00:57:38,630 --> 00:57:36,240
amazing attitude and and wonderful

1245
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:38,640
really I think it's great thanks you

1246
00:57:42,710 --> 00:57:40,890
know Nelson Mandela did it and and

1247
00:57:44,270 --> 00:57:42,720
Martin Luther King did it and Mahatma

1248
00:57:46,940 --> 00:57:44,280
Gandhi did it and these guys were all

1249
00:57:48,170 --> 00:57:46,950
giants and I thought when they said that

1250
00:57:50,930 --> 00:57:48,180
they weren't bitter and that they

1251
00:57:54,530 --> 00:57:50,940
forgave they were they were telling the

1252
00:57:57,110 --> 00:57:54,540
and and I thought I have to do the same

1253
00:57:59,150 --> 00:57:57,120
thing I have to forgive and forget and

1254
00:58:01,940 --> 00:57:59,160
move on and so that's what I've done now

1255
00:58:05,210 --> 00:58:01,950
when you went off to prison that day you

1256
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:05,220
thought you were going to have I forget

1257
00:58:09,740 --> 00:58:06,810
what they call it it's sort of like the

1258
00:58:11,900 --> 00:58:09,750
white-collar prison yeah it's a

1259
00:58:13,340 --> 00:58:11,910
minimum-security working work camp right

1260
00:58:16,340 --> 00:58:13,350
and that's where you thought you were

1261
00:58:18,590 --> 00:58:16,350
going but yeah the judge ordered that I

1262
00:58:21,140 --> 00:58:18,600
go to a work camp minimum security and

1263
00:58:23,690 --> 00:58:21,150
at a camp there are no bars on the

1264
00:58:25,610 --> 00:58:23,700
windows there's no barbed wire the doors

1265
00:58:26,630 --> 00:58:25,620
are not locked you're free to come and

1266
00:58:28,730 --> 00:58:26,640
go as you please

1267
00:58:31,820 --> 00:58:28,740
you're just on your honor not to abscond

1268
00:58:33,710 --> 00:58:31,830
and so when I got to the prison I turned

1269
00:58:35,630 --> 00:58:33,720
myself in the prison guard started

1270
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:35,640
walking me around to the back of the

1271
00:58:39,740 --> 00:58:37,530
actual prison which is across the street

1272
00:58:41,930 --> 00:58:39,750
from the camp and I said no no there's a

1273
00:58:44,570 --> 00:58:41,940
mistake I'm supposed to be at the camp

1274
00:58:46,730 --> 00:58:44,580
across the street and the guy chuckled

1275
00:58:50,180 --> 00:58:46,740
and said not according to my paperwork

1276
00:58:53,030 --> 00:58:50,190
you're not and so it took me five days

1277
00:58:55,070 --> 00:58:53,040
before I got access to a phone and I

1278
00:58:57,260 --> 00:58:55,080
called my attorney and I said hey they

1279
00:58:58,910 --> 00:58:57,270
put me in the actual prison with the

1280
00:59:02,120 --> 00:58:58,920
murderers and the pedophiles and the

1281
00:59:05,390 --> 00:59:02,130
drug kingpins what do I do and he said

1282
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:05,400
oh my gosh well it'll take us you know

1283
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:07,170
we could file a motion but it'll take us

1284
00:59:10,940 --> 00:59:08,850
two years before we get a hearing and

1285
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:10,950
you'll be home by then he said I'm sorry

1286
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:12,480
you're just gonna have to tough it out

1287
00:59:18,890 --> 00:59:15,930
and so that's when I decided I was going

1288
00:59:21,620 --> 00:59:18,900
to use my CIA training to make sure that

1289
00:59:23,660 --> 00:59:21,630
I was safe and to keep myself on the top

1290
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:23,670
of the social heat and then that's

1291
00:59:27,260 --> 00:59:25,650
exactly what led to the writing of this

1292
00:59:29,330 --> 00:59:27,270
book all right I do want to talk about

1293
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:29,340
that story I do want to talk about that

1294
00:59:35,870 --> 00:59:33,050
but now why couldn't your attorney

1295
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:35,880
contact the judge and say hey you

1296
00:59:42,740 --> 00:59:38,490
ordered him for this you know for this

1297
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:42,750
up prison this it's a low security

1298
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:45,090
prison and why is he in the you know why

1299
00:59:49,490 --> 00:59:46,410
was he put on the other side of the road

1300
00:59:51,650 --> 00:59:49,500
what as it turns out

1301
00:59:53,090 --> 00:59:51,660
judges can only make recommendations to

1302
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:53,100
the Bureau of Prisons the Bureau of

1303
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:55,410
Prisons has ultimate authority and so

1304
00:59:58,670 --> 00:59:57,330
they just elected to ignore the judges

1305
01:00:01,640 --> 00:59:58,680
recommend it's another thing that just

1306
01:00:04,250 --> 01:00:01,650
doesn't seem right in any way to me yeah

1307
01:00:07,310 --> 01:00:04,260
yeah a lot of in justices

1308
01:00:08,780 --> 01:00:07,320
so and you know I think about what you

1309
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:08,790
mentioned earlier all these different

1310
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:12,330
people that actually did more of a crime

1311
01:00:17,500 --> 01:00:15,450
than you did and it just makes me angry

1312
01:00:20,630 --> 01:00:17,510
I got to tell you I did you know that

1313
01:00:24,100 --> 01:00:20,640
they could just because of this torture

1314
01:00:27,190 --> 01:00:24,110
thing that this is how you were treated

1315
01:00:30,470 --> 01:00:27,200
now let's talk about what it was like

1316
01:00:35,090 --> 01:00:30,480
being in prison and how you did survive

1317
01:00:37,070 --> 01:00:35,100
using your CIA skills yeah yeah so what

1318
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:37,080
was that like yeah first of all let me

1319
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:43,410
ask you this because you were CIA did

1320
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:45,090
that was that a good thing or a bad

1321
01:00:49,310 --> 01:00:47,490
thing when you're walking into the

1322
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:49,320
prison well I wasn't sure in the

1323
01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:51,450
beginning it turned out to be a good

1324
01:00:56,900 --> 01:00:54,000
thing and it it was a good thing because

1325
01:01:01,690 --> 01:00:56,910
of the the kindness of one other

1326
01:01:04,070 --> 01:01:01,700
prisoner there was a prisoner an Italian

1327
01:01:07,940 --> 01:01:04,080
who was associated with an organized

1328
01:01:11,330 --> 01:01:07,950
crime family who had followed my case in

1329
01:01:13,100 --> 01:01:11,340
the New York Times and read in the times

1330
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:13,110
that I was being assigned to Loreto and

1331
01:01:19,370 --> 01:01:16,650
so he took it upon himself to go to all

1332
01:01:21,950 --> 01:01:19,380
of the Italians in prison and I mean we

1333
01:01:24,530 --> 01:01:21,960
had the boss of the Gambino's we had the

1334
01:01:26,930 --> 01:01:24,540
underboss of the decal vacante z-- we

1335
01:01:29,180 --> 01:01:26,940
had the the top captain of the bananas

1336
01:01:31,940 --> 01:01:29,190
these were serious organized crime

1337
01:01:34,010 --> 01:01:31,950
figures so he went to each and every one

1338
01:01:36,590 --> 01:01:34,020
of them and he explained to them the

1339
01:01:40,490 --> 01:01:36,600
difference between an FBI agent who's a

1340
01:01:43,460 --> 01:01:40,500
cop and a rat and a CIA officer who's a

1341
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:43,470
hero and is working overseas to protect

1342
01:01:49,100 --> 01:01:46,970
us from terrorism and so once they

1343
01:01:51,860 --> 01:01:49,110
understood the difference between the

1344
01:01:57,020 --> 01:01:51,870
FBI and the CIA I was welcomed with open

1345
01:02:00,560 --> 01:01:57,030
arms Wow so how did you did you actually

1346
01:02:04,180 --> 01:02:00,570
have an easy time all along or did that

1347
01:02:07,220 --> 01:02:04,190
was that did that take a while before

1348
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:07,230
you know you are constantly battling

1349
01:02:13,900 --> 01:02:11,250
depression and boredom so you know there

1350
01:02:16,110 --> 01:02:13,910
were challenges along the way

1351
01:02:18,780 --> 01:02:16,120
only once did I have a challenge

1352
01:02:20,870 --> 01:02:18,790
from another prisoner and I took good

1353
01:02:23,970 --> 01:02:20,880
care of him as you'll see in the book uh

1354
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:23,980
but it was it was the guards the group

1355
01:02:31,530 --> 01:02:28,770
the guards are sadistic boys and and

1356
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:31,540
much of their behavior is is criminal

1357
01:02:36,750 --> 01:02:34,690
and I mean that literally which I also

1358
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:36,760
document in the book so it was the

1359
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:39,850
guards that were far far more dangerous

1360
01:02:43,980 --> 01:02:42,250
and more of a problem than that any

1361
01:02:46,350 --> 01:02:43,990
prisoner was yeah just like in the

1362
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:46,360
movies right there's always that now can

1363
01:02:49,380 --> 01:02:48,010
you give some examples of some of the

1364
01:02:52,620 --> 01:02:49,390
things that you would consider illegal

1365
01:02:55,500 --> 01:02:52,630
that they were doing well I I was in

1366
01:02:57,960 --> 01:02:55,510
prison for five days and I was called to

1367
01:03:01,560 --> 01:02:57,970
the lieutenant's office and when I got

1368
01:03:03,390 --> 01:03:01,570
there uh the two cops in the in the

1369
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:03,400
special Investigative Service showed me

1370
01:03:07,710 --> 01:03:05,410
a picture of another prisoner they said

1371
01:03:09,510 --> 01:03:07,720
do you know this guy I said I don't know

1372
01:03:13,050 --> 01:03:09,520
one but I met him last night

1373
01:03:15,870 --> 01:03:13,060
Oh would you say to him I said I told

1374
01:03:18,510 --> 01:03:15,880
him not shut up in medic Tech it's nice

1375
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:18,520
to meet you in Arabic what did he say to

1376
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:22,090
you I said he told me to shut up in

1377
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:24,610
medic back to you it's nice to meet you

1378
01:03:30,570 --> 01:03:26,730
too I shook his hand I walked away and

1379
01:03:32,730 --> 01:03:30,580
they said well after you met him he

1380
01:03:36,060 --> 01:03:32,740
called the number in Pakistan and they

1381
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:36,070
told him to kill you and I said please I

1382
01:03:41,130 --> 01:03:38,170
could kill this guy with my thumb and

1383
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:41,140
they said no don't do that we've been

1384
01:03:44,250 --> 01:03:42,490
looking for a reason to ship him to

1385
01:03:48,030 --> 01:03:44,260
another prison he's the uncle of the

1386
01:03:49,590 --> 01:03:48,040
Time Square bomber I said okay they said

1387
01:03:52,170 --> 01:03:49,600
don't don't do you know don't do

1388
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:52,180
anything I said okay that's fine so I

1389
01:03:57,780 --> 01:03:55,810
walked out well every time I pass this

1390
01:03:59,190 --> 01:03:57,790
guy in the hall we've given him the

1391
01:04:01,320 --> 01:03:59,200
stink eye and he's given me the stink

1392
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:01,330
eye back but the more I thought about

1393
01:04:05,130 --> 01:04:02,770
this the more it didn't make any sense

1394
01:04:07,860 --> 01:04:05,140
because the Times Square bomber was

1395
01:04:10,710 --> 01:04:07,870
Pakistani and this guy was an Iraqi

1396
01:04:14,250 --> 01:04:10,720
curly and they don't speak Arabic in

1397
01:04:20,250 --> 01:04:14,260
Pakistan they they speak or do Pashto

1398
01:04:22,530 --> 01:04:20,260
Cindy Punjabi so um this didn't make any

1399
01:04:24,750 --> 01:04:22,540
sense to me so finally I walked up to

1400
01:04:26,970 --> 01:04:24,760
the guy outside on the yard and I put my

1401
01:04:28,070 --> 01:04:26,980
hands up I said hey I mean you no harm I

1402
01:04:31,490 --> 01:04:28,080
gotta ask you

1403
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:31,500
question have the cops said anything to

1404
01:04:37,670 --> 01:04:35,010
you about me and he said yeah they told

1405
01:04:39,590 --> 01:04:37,680
me that after we met you call the number

1406
01:04:39,860 --> 01:04:39,600
in Washington and they told you to kill

1407
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:39,870
me

1408
01:04:46,070 --> 01:04:43,890
unreal so I went to the law library and

1409
01:04:48,770 --> 01:04:46,080
research this and this is a felony it's

1410
01:04:50,740 --> 01:04:48,780
a class D felony and it's conspiracy to

1411
01:04:54,350 --> 01:04:50,750
incite violence at a federal facility

1412
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:54,360
they wanted me to kill this guy or they

1413
01:04:58,910 --> 01:04:56,370
wanted him to kill me or they wanted

1414
01:05:02,120 --> 01:04:58,920
both of us to to hurt each other trying

1415
01:05:06,020 --> 01:05:02,130
to kill each other for their own sick

1416
01:05:08,870 --> 01:05:06,030
pleasure so when I reported this in in a

1417
01:05:12,110 --> 01:05:08,880
blog and this blog of course is in the

1418
01:05:14,690 --> 01:05:12,120
book it's a part of the book the the

1419
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:14,700
press went wild CNN drove up to the

1420
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:17,330
prison 60 minutes came to the prison

1421
01:05:22,100 --> 01:05:19,530
everybody's beaten up the warden to try

1422
01:05:23,690 --> 01:05:22,110
to get a comment so the warden promised

1423
01:05:27,110 --> 01:05:23,700
that there would be an investigation and

1424
01:05:29,930 --> 01:05:27,120
as you might guess there was and it was

1425
01:05:31,790 --> 01:05:29,940
an investigation of me and how I got

1426
01:05:35,420 --> 01:05:31,800
that blog out and got it to the

1427
01:05:37,790 --> 01:05:35,430
huffington post unreal now did you have

1428
01:05:41,510 --> 01:05:37,800
like a constant connection to the

1429
01:05:44,330 --> 01:05:41,520
outside as far as right yeah my

1430
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:44,340
attorneys or attorneys yeah my attorneys

1431
01:05:48,620 --> 01:05:47,130
I put everything in legal mail I sent it

1432
01:05:50,270 --> 01:05:48,630
all out to my attorneys and they made

1433
01:05:52,580 --> 01:05:50,280
sure it got to the right reporters Wow

1434
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:52,590
now how about people coming to see you

1435
01:06:01,040 --> 01:05:55,850
did you have like supporters come up

1436
01:06:05,060 --> 01:06:01,050
call them oh yeah a half a dozen CIA

1437
01:06:10,090 --> 01:06:05,070
officers a couple of NSA people a judge

1438
01:06:12,830 --> 01:06:10,100
an FBI agent I actually had trouble

1439
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:12,840
juggling all the visits because you're

1440
01:06:18,020 --> 01:06:16,290
only allowed four visits a month uh and

1441
01:06:22,340 --> 01:06:18,030
and I wanted to see my wife and kids

1442
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:22,350
once a month and so um we had to like

1443
01:06:26,510 --> 01:06:24,450
pair visits like a friend from high

1444
01:06:28,730 --> 01:06:26,520
school would visit at the same time a

1445
01:06:30,950 --> 01:06:28,740
friend from college would or a friend

1446
01:06:32,630 --> 01:06:30,960
from my hometown would visit along with

1447
01:06:33,950 --> 01:06:32,640
a friend from the CIA

1448
01:06:36,230 --> 01:06:33,960
even if they didn't know each other and

1449
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:36,240
that way I could see everybody that that

1450
01:06:42,019 --> 01:06:39,450
wanted to see me how did your your wife

1451
01:06:45,849 --> 01:06:42,029
and kids how did they handle this that's

1452
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:45,859
been very hard it's hard but my wife is

1453
01:06:53,420 --> 01:06:49,650
is just she was a rock-solid supporter

1454
01:06:56,750 --> 01:06:53,430
she was just so tough and so certain

1455
01:06:59,410 --> 01:06:56,760
that that we were in the right she stuck

1456
01:07:02,630 --> 01:06:59,420
by me through those really awful days

1457
01:07:06,740 --> 01:07:02,640
and I remember when we spoke a year or

1458
01:07:08,569 --> 01:07:06,750
so ago on the phone you told me the what

1459
01:07:11,599 --> 01:07:08,579
I think was a really happy ending to

1460
01:07:13,609 --> 01:07:11,609
what happened to her job basically she

1461
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:13,619
got fired and just can you kind of tell

1462
01:07:18,319 --> 01:07:16,410
that story real quickly yeah she was

1463
01:07:20,420 --> 01:07:18,329
fired on the day of my arrest only

1464
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:20,430
because she was married to me and she

1465
01:07:23,750 --> 01:07:22,170
ended up getting a job with a defense

1466
01:07:27,049 --> 01:07:23,760
contractor she's been promoted there

1467
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:27,059
three times and as it's turned out she's

1468
01:07:33,079 --> 01:07:29,970
making just more than triple what she

1469
01:07:36,230 --> 01:07:33,089
made it CIA so she was at the CIA lost

1470
01:07:40,700 --> 01:07:36,240
her job and a story turned out turned

1471
01:07:43,430 --> 01:07:40,710
out well so you so you're there for two

1472
01:07:45,980 --> 01:07:43,440
years that is that that you talk about

1473
01:07:50,990 --> 01:07:45,990
boredom how did you keep your mind

1474
01:07:53,539 --> 01:07:51,000
active I a couple ways I made a decision

1475
01:07:56,029 --> 01:07:53,549
on my very first day I've been in prison

1476
01:07:59,319 --> 01:07:56,039
for like two hours and it was mail call

1477
01:08:02,240 --> 01:07:59,329
and I received a card from a lady in

1478
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:02,250
Ringgold Georgia who I had never met and

1479
01:08:05,630 --> 01:08:04,170
I thought that that was such a sweet

1480
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:05,640
thing to do that this woman took the

1481
01:08:10,009 --> 01:08:08,250
time she actually handmade the card it

1482
01:08:11,900 --> 01:08:10,019
was such a nice thing to do that I was

1483
01:08:14,150 --> 01:08:11,910
going to respond and I decided that day

1484
01:08:17,749 --> 01:08:14,160
that I was going to respond to everybody

1485
01:08:20,749 --> 01:08:17,759
who wrote me a letter not having any

1486
01:08:22,910 --> 01:08:20,759
idea that by the end of the two years I

1487
01:08:25,849 --> 01:08:22,920
would have responded to more than 7,000

1488
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:25,859
letters which is what it was well I hand

1489
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:29,730
wrote seven thousand letters I hand

1490
01:08:37,070 --> 01:08:32,210
wrote this book five hundred and fifty

1491
01:08:39,229 --> 01:08:37,080
legal pages handwritten so that kept me

1492
01:08:42,019 --> 01:08:39,239
very busy writing like a crazy person

1493
01:08:43,010 --> 01:08:42,029
and then just to keep my mind sharp I

1494
01:08:52,099 --> 01:08:43,020
read

1495
01:08:54,470 --> 01:08:52,109
months at Loreto and every single day I

1496
01:08:57,950 --> 01:08:54,480
forced myself to do the New York Times

1497
01:09:00,349 --> 01:08:57,960
crossword puzzle I needed to keep my

1498
01:09:02,599 --> 01:09:00,359
mind show yes and I think it's a I've

1499
01:09:05,390 --> 01:09:02,609
just been in a point of recovery after

1500
01:09:07,789 --> 01:09:05,400
surgery that I decided to force myself

1501
01:09:09,590 --> 01:09:07,799
to do something every day you know and I

1502
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:09,600
think it's very important for your head

1503
01:09:15,590 --> 01:09:12,690
to you know like even though I couldn't

1504
01:09:17,510 --> 01:09:15,600
walk in you know I made sure that I got

1505
01:09:19,849 --> 01:09:17,520
in the shower somehow and I shaved every

1506
01:09:22,910 --> 01:09:19,859
day even though I'd no one would see me

1507
01:09:24,590 --> 01:09:22,920
unshaven you know is I think it's kind

1508
01:09:27,440 --> 01:09:24,600
of like the regiment that kind of keeps

1509
01:09:29,090 --> 01:09:27,450
you together it lifts your spirits yeah

1510
01:09:32,750 --> 01:09:29,100
it lets you spirit and what are some of

1511
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:32,760
the other things that you did was let's

1512
01:09:36,170 --> 01:09:34,290
talk about your interactions you've

1513
01:09:39,829 --> 01:09:36,180
mentioned the Italians so you had them

1514
01:09:42,769 --> 01:09:39,839
on your side yeah they were my closest

1515
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:42,779
friends so you know I you don't go to

1516
01:09:47,480 --> 01:09:44,400
prison and make friends I actually made

1517
01:09:48,050 --> 01:09:47,490
like three like true friends three

1518
01:09:52,220 --> 01:09:48,060
people

1519
01:09:56,780 --> 01:09:52,230
um but you rather than make friends you

1520
01:09:59,180 --> 01:09:56,790
engage in strategic alliances so my

1521
01:10:04,400 --> 01:09:59,190
strategic alliances were with you know

1522
01:10:05,540 --> 01:10:04,410
the Italians the Aryans the Crips and

1523
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:05,550
the Bloods Wow

1524
01:10:10,730 --> 01:10:08,850
when it was necessary I actually had

1525
01:10:12,820 --> 01:10:10,740
very good relations with the Crips and

1526
01:10:16,430 --> 01:10:12,830
the Bloods and with their shot collars

1527
01:10:18,350 --> 01:10:16,440
and then there were people that you just

1528
01:10:19,310 --> 01:10:18,360
weren't going to get along with or

1529
01:10:22,100 --> 01:10:19,320
didn't want to

1530
01:10:23,990 --> 01:10:22,110
number one pedophiles I had nothing

1531
01:10:25,820 --> 01:10:24,000
literally nothing to do with pedophiles

1532
01:10:28,250 --> 01:10:25,830
wouldn't speak to them wouldn't touch

1533
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:28,260
them nothing whatsoever to man to police

1534
01:10:35,930 --> 01:10:33,570
in um and you know the the Latin drug

1535
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:35,940
gangs they're in their own little world

1536
01:10:41,660 --> 01:10:39,330
and they're so divided so we had like

1537
01:10:46,910 --> 01:10:41,670
you know the borrachos the North Daniels

1538
01:10:49,250 --> 01:10:46,920
the ms-13 the Latin Kings the Mexican

1539
01:10:52,340 --> 01:10:49,260
Mafia and then they have factions within

1540
01:10:55,370 --> 01:10:52,350
their gangs you know it's best just not

1541
01:10:59,090 --> 01:10:55,380
to mess with that and not to

1542
01:11:02,330 --> 01:10:59,100
engage and so I I kept my distance did

1543
01:11:04,580 --> 01:11:02,340
anyone in prison think that you were an

1544
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:04,590
opportunity to get to be able to speak

1545
01:11:11,750 --> 01:11:07,290
to a CIA force it

1546
01:11:15,890 --> 01:11:11,760
oh yeah and in what ways well the

1547
01:11:17,780 --> 01:11:15,900
problem was they were okay yeah yeah one

1548
01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:17,790
guy told me that he needed for me to

1549
01:11:24,500 --> 01:11:20,130
broker a meeting for him with the CIA

1550
01:11:28,850 --> 01:11:24,510
because he commanded a group of

1551
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:28,860
intellectuals that had a militia and he

1552
01:11:34,820 --> 01:11:30,810
wanted to be installed as president of

1553
01:11:37,180 --> 01:11:34,830
Iran and I said listen I know you're the

1554
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:37,190
guy who poops in the shower over to me

1555
01:11:42,740 --> 01:11:39,690
right I know I know it's you

1556
01:11:45,020 --> 01:11:42,750
everybody knows it's you secondly I'm

1557
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:45,030
here you're in the announcements calling

1558
01:11:49,300 --> 01:11:47,130
calling you to the psychiatrist's office

1559
01:11:51,590 --> 01:11:49,310
I know you have mandatory psychiatric

1560
01:11:53,300 --> 01:11:51,600
treatment so now I'm not going to

1561
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:53,310
frickin broker a meeting for you with

1562
01:11:58,669 --> 01:11:54,290
the CIA

1563
01:12:00,350 --> 01:11:58,679
look lunatic but whether I got that

1564
01:12:02,990 --> 01:12:00,360
everyone huh but were there are people

1565
01:12:08,180 --> 01:12:03,000
that thought they may get the inside

1566
01:12:10,570 --> 01:12:08,190
scoop from you Oh always always but they

1567
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:10,580
were always very conspiratorial you know

1568
01:12:16,189 --> 01:12:13,170
the CIA had done everything of

1569
01:12:18,470 --> 01:12:16,199
everything from area 51 to you know

1570
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:18,480
shooting that Malaysian plane down to

1571
01:12:23,090 --> 01:12:20,810
beaming waves at their heads

1572
01:12:25,820 --> 01:12:23,100
it was everything the CIA was behind

1573
01:12:28,669 --> 01:12:25,830
everything you know squelching the cure

1574
01:12:32,030 --> 01:12:28,679
for cancer faking the moon landing all

1575
01:12:34,370 --> 01:12:32,040
that huh I got a call now yeah so what

1576
01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:34,380
did you learn by being in prison as far

1577
01:12:41,180 --> 01:12:39,449
as let's talk about reform is it

1578
01:12:43,010 --> 01:12:41,190
non-existent yeah the prison system

1579
01:12:45,379 --> 01:12:43,020
though the whole judicial system is

1580
01:12:50,450 --> 01:12:45,389
utterly broken it's racist its

1581
01:12:54,260 --> 01:12:50,460
xenophobic it divides and ruins families

1582
01:12:57,050 --> 01:12:54,270
there's no rehabilitation there's no

1583
01:12:59,090 --> 01:12:57,060
education there's no job training we

1584
01:13:01,129 --> 01:12:59,100
have 5% of the world's population in

1585
01:13:03,290 --> 01:13:01,139
this country and 25% of the world's

1586
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:03,300
prison population that's right and so

1587
01:13:06,950 --> 01:13:05,610
you know we are we are light years

1588
01:13:09,020 --> 01:13:06,960
behind our European

1589
01:13:11,660 --> 01:13:09,030
allies on these on these reform issues

1590
01:13:13,820 --> 01:13:11,670
late years and God knows it's only going

1591
01:13:17,140 --> 01:13:13,830
to get worse with Jeff Sessions as

1592
01:13:20,540 --> 01:13:17,150
Attorney General do you think the reason

1593
01:13:24,290 --> 01:13:20,550
that the the prison population is so

1594
01:13:28,459 --> 01:13:24,300
high is because is because of re-entries

1595
01:13:33,650 --> 01:13:28,469
because of not no reform things yeah I

1596
01:13:35,860 --> 01:13:33,660
do um you know I thought that I thought

1597
01:13:39,500 --> 01:13:35,870
that there would be some sort of

1598
01:13:41,660 --> 01:13:39,510
training in fact I even I even joked

1599
01:13:44,660 --> 01:13:41,670
with my wife before I went to prison

1600
01:13:47,300 --> 01:13:44,670
that well at least I can learn plumbing

1601
01:13:52,430 --> 01:13:47,310
or something or electrical work or small

1602
01:13:54,950 --> 01:13:52,440
engine repair ha ha ha and you know they

1603
01:13:57,380 --> 01:13:54,960
phase that out in the late 70s there

1604
01:14:00,530 --> 01:13:57,390
there is no such training now for me it

1605
01:14:02,090 --> 01:14:00,540
was a joke but if if you've been a drug

1606
01:14:05,260 --> 01:14:02,100
dealer all your life and the only thing

1607
01:14:08,450 --> 01:14:05,270
you know how to do is deal drugs and

1608
01:14:10,610 --> 01:14:08,460
you're not being educated or trained in

1609
01:14:11,990 --> 01:14:10,620
prison well you're going to go home

1610
01:14:13,100 --> 01:14:12,000
eventually and what do you think you're

1611
01:14:15,020 --> 01:14:13,110
going to do you're going to sell drugs

1612
01:14:17,300 --> 01:14:15,030
again because it's the only thing you

1613
01:14:18,979 --> 01:14:17,310
know how to do and that's why our

1614
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:18,989
recidivism rates are so high in this

1615
01:14:24,110 --> 01:14:21,330
country you know forty five percent of

1616
01:14:26,750 --> 01:14:24,120
all prisoners are reincarnated within

1617
01:14:29,420 --> 01:14:26,760
three years forty five percent that is

1618
01:14:34,090 --> 01:14:29,430
really has no idea I think so no idea

1619
01:14:36,350 --> 01:14:34,100
but um now I followed and I had an a

1620
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:36,360
prosecutor on this show

1621
01:14:41,090 --> 01:14:38,489
I followed making a murderer that was a

1622
01:14:45,140 --> 01:14:41,100
Stephen Avery case yeah and you know

1623
01:14:47,030 --> 01:14:45,150
here basically uh I I believe he

1624
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:47,040
basically wanted to go back to prison

1625
01:14:51,890 --> 01:14:49,170
how do you feel about you think that is

1626
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:51,900
something that prison makes you want to

1627
01:14:59,170 --> 01:14:56,010
go back let me tell you about a

1628
01:15:03,229 --> 01:14:59,180
conversation I once heard in the TV room

1629
01:15:05,780 --> 01:15:03,239
three guys playing cards middle of the

1630
01:15:06,890 --> 01:15:05,790
day nobody else is in there I'm just

1631
01:15:10,100 --> 01:15:06,900
standing there looking to see what the

1632
01:15:12,410 --> 01:15:10,110
news tickers saying and one of them kind

1633
01:15:16,670 --> 01:15:12,420
of leans back in his chair and looks

1634
01:15:20,330 --> 01:15:16,680
around and he says you know they give us

1635
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:20,340
clothes they give us medical they give

1636
01:15:23,660 --> 01:15:21,090
us three school

1637
01:15:26,620 --> 01:15:23,670
your meals a day we work out in the

1638
01:15:30,020 --> 01:15:26,630
weight room we run the we run the track

1639
01:15:34,370 --> 01:15:30,030
he said if we had [\h__\h] this place would

1640
01:15:37,810 --> 01:15:34,380
be paradise Wow and you and I thought

1641
01:15:40,339 --> 01:15:37,820
wow wow a lot of people feel that way

1642
01:15:45,700 --> 01:15:40,349
yeah I've heard that you know you

1643
01:15:50,089 --> 01:15:45,710
mentioned PS the what is it called PSD

1644
01:15:51,979 --> 01:15:50,099
PTSD DSD and I think you know anyone

1645
01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:51,989
that is in prison for a long time like

1646
01:15:58,729 --> 01:15:55,170
you said has that and you know just the

1647
01:16:03,439 --> 01:15:58,739
adjustments so you know back to society

1648
01:16:05,540 --> 01:16:03,449
must be I think I watched in maybe it

1649
01:16:08,540 --> 01:16:05,550
was silenced or one of those films where

1650
01:16:11,959 --> 01:16:08,550
you had to get a job no matter what job

1651
01:16:13,970 --> 01:16:11,969
it was so what is that what's that

1652
01:16:18,350 --> 01:16:13,980
struggle been like um what was coming

1653
01:16:19,939 --> 01:16:18,360
home like coming home was a lot rougher

1654
01:16:21,830 --> 01:16:19,949
than I thought it was going to be like I

1655
01:16:23,060 --> 01:16:21,840
said earlier I thought I could just step

1656
01:16:26,260 --> 01:16:23,070
back into my life again

1657
01:16:30,649 --> 01:16:26,270
and and you can't you're dealing with

1658
01:16:33,530 --> 01:16:30,659
with probation and halfway house

1659
01:16:35,839 --> 01:16:33,540
restrictions and travel restrictions and

1660
01:16:38,629 --> 01:16:35,849
you have to do this this financial

1661
01:16:40,850 --> 01:16:38,639
report every month and then you have to

1662
01:16:43,399 --> 01:16:40,860
request permission every time you leave

1663
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:43,409
the house and and then you call them the

1664
01:16:49,550 --> 01:16:45,449
minute you get back to the house and I

1665
01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:49,560
mean it's just it's it's onerous it's no

1666
01:16:53,570 --> 01:16:51,330
wonder so many people get violated and

1667
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:53,580
go back to prison there are so many

1668
01:16:58,879 --> 01:16:55,770
rules the system is set up to make you

1669
01:17:00,950 --> 01:16:58,889
fail it's not set up to help you succeed

1670
01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:00,960
you know at this halfway house that I

1671
01:17:05,330 --> 01:17:03,330
had to report to there were a hundred

1672
01:17:08,060 --> 01:17:05,340
and ten guys in the halfway house they

1673
01:17:10,820 --> 01:17:08,070
had one job listed on the job board it

1674
01:17:13,729 --> 01:17:10,830
was it was to be a dishwasher at

1675
01:17:17,089 --> 01:17:13,739
Fuddruckers for a hundred and ten men

1676
01:17:18,910 --> 01:17:17,099
and if you don't get a job in 30 days

1677
01:17:22,310 --> 01:17:18,920
you go back to prison

1678
01:17:24,229 --> 01:17:22,320
unreal so I mean for me I had a job set

1679
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:24,239
up already you know before I even got

1680
01:17:29,300 --> 01:17:28,050
home but what does everybody else do you

1681
01:17:34,250 --> 01:17:29,310
kill each other for this job at

1682
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:34,260
Fuddruckers now that I think I heard you

1683
01:17:36,379 --> 01:17:35,010
say

1684
01:17:39,290 --> 01:17:36,389
and one of your interviews that I

1685
01:17:43,459 --> 01:17:39,300
listened to that the average American

1686
01:17:44,029 --> 01:17:43,469
commits three crimes a day or something

1687
01:17:47,569 --> 01:17:44,039
like that

1688
01:17:50,509 --> 01:17:47,579
in three felonies a day and this is this

1689
01:17:53,689 --> 01:17:50,519
is by accident mostly I mean we yeah

1690
01:17:55,759 --> 01:17:53,699
mostly by accident sure if this is a

1691
01:17:57,439 --> 01:17:55,769
book written by Harvey silverglade a

1692
01:18:02,709 --> 01:17:57,449
professor of law from Harvard University

1693
01:18:05,209 --> 01:18:02,719
and he says that the country is so over

1694
01:18:07,129 --> 01:18:05,219
legislated and I'm so over criminalized

1695
01:18:09,890 --> 01:18:07,139
that the average person commits three

1696
01:18:12,350 --> 01:18:09,900
felonies every single day with the

1697
01:18:14,450 --> 01:18:12,360
operative notion being that if they want

1698
01:18:16,430 --> 01:18:14,460
to get you they're going to get you and

1699
01:18:18,500 --> 01:18:16,440
you're going to end up having to take a

1700
01:18:20,689 --> 01:18:18,510
plea to something that's something when

1701
01:18:23,089 --> 01:18:20,699
I was up I lived in California for nine

1702
01:18:25,189 --> 01:18:23,099
years and I had to go to traffic school

1703
01:18:27,319 --> 01:18:25,199
because I had a violation and you can

1704
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:27,329
get some points removed from your

1705
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:29,010
license if you go to traffic school and

1706
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:31,650
save on insurance and all that so I went

1707
01:18:36,020 --> 01:18:33,090
to the traffic school and I'll never

1708
01:18:39,049 --> 01:18:36,030
forget the instructor said that each of

1709
01:18:43,970 --> 01:18:39,059
you sitting in this class has violated

1710
01:18:46,669 --> 01:18:43,980
at least 3,500 of traffic laws for the

1711
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:46,679
one that you got caught on you know and

1712
01:18:53,899 --> 01:18:50,730
it's pretty amazing and I III only that

1713
01:18:55,759 --> 01:18:53,909
I probably violated 3,500 today driving

1714
01:18:57,319 --> 01:18:55,769
around Los Angeles that's that's pretty

1715
01:19:00,319 --> 01:18:57,329
easy to do

1716
01:19:03,169 --> 01:19:00,329
so how was the family how was it going

1717
01:19:05,299 --> 01:19:03,179
back to like say you said your wife was

1718
01:19:06,950 --> 01:19:05,309
a rock how about the kids you weren't

1719
01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:06,960
there and all of a sudden you're popped

1720
01:19:12,830 --> 01:19:10,650
back in well I called I called home

1721
01:19:14,689 --> 01:19:12,840
every day and and talked to the kids all

1722
01:19:18,350 --> 01:19:14,699
the time and then they came to visit me

1723
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:18,360
every month and so it was you know that

1724
01:19:23,270 --> 01:19:20,250
that part was really great that that

1725
01:19:26,779 --> 01:19:23,280
part was exciting and and heartwarming

1726
01:19:29,870 --> 01:19:26,789
and and really great and the kids

1727
01:19:33,109 --> 01:19:29,880
they're they're just all all of them so

1728
01:19:35,390 --> 01:19:33,119
smart and so well adjusted and thank God

1729
01:19:37,209 --> 01:19:35,400
everything everything has worked out

1730
01:19:38,839 --> 01:19:37,219
beautifully I had a really good mother

1731
01:19:42,740 --> 01:19:38,849
while you're gone

1732
01:19:45,259 --> 01:19:42,750
you sure do that's great now a question

1733
01:19:47,089 --> 01:19:45,269
came in from chat do you think the

1734
01:19:48,340 --> 01:19:47,099
government is still keeping a close eye

1735
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:48,350
on you

1736
01:19:52,270 --> 01:19:50,690
have you had any encounters with them

1737
01:19:56,050 --> 01:19:52,280
since you were out of prison

1738
01:19:59,110 --> 01:19:56,060
oh that's a great question um yeah I

1739
01:19:59,440 --> 01:19:59,120
think they probably are keeping tabs on

1740
01:20:10,120 --> 01:19:59,450
me

1741
01:20:12,070 --> 01:20:10,130
earlier I've seen surveillance several

1742
01:20:14,140 --> 01:20:12,080
times more than several four or five

1743
01:20:16,420 --> 01:20:14,150
times since I've been home I've

1744
01:20:18,550 --> 01:20:16,430
documented it I'm positive I was a

1745
01:20:19,780 --> 01:20:18,560
surveillance instructor at the CIA so I

1746
01:20:26,140 --> 01:20:19,790
know when I'm under surveillance

1747
01:20:28,030 --> 01:20:26,150
um so yeah and in terms of my

1748
01:20:31,860 --> 01:20:28,040
communications I think we all should

1749
01:20:34,390 --> 01:20:31,870
assume that that we're under scrutiny so

1750
01:20:35,979 --> 01:20:34,400
I'm careful I use encrypted

1751
01:20:37,330 --> 01:20:35,989
communications now not because I

1752
01:20:38,830 --> 01:20:37,340
necessarily have anything to hide but

1753
01:20:41,080 --> 01:20:38,840
just because it's nobody's damn business

1754
01:20:42,910 --> 01:20:41,090
what I say in my communications what can

1755
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:42,920
the average American do to protect

1756
01:20:49,150 --> 01:20:46,489
themselves from from this well like that

1757
01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:49,160
what do you do yet there's a lot

1758
01:20:55,120 --> 01:20:51,290
actually I got my phone right here I use

1759
01:20:56,920 --> 01:20:55,130
different encrypted apps whatsapp is

1760
01:20:58,510 --> 01:20:56,930
encrypted signal is encrypted I like

1761
01:21:01,450 --> 01:20:58,520
signal a lot although it's still

1762
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:01,460
breakable um it'll at least slow them

1763
01:21:06,490 --> 01:21:04,010
down there's an encrypted telephone app

1764
01:21:09,340 --> 01:21:06,500
called red phone I think it costs a

1765
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:09,350
dollar I use that you can also make

1766
01:21:12,700 --> 01:21:11,330
calls within signal that are also

1767
01:21:15,550 --> 01:21:12,710
encrypted and they give you an

1768
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:15,560
encryption key and then for email I use

1769
01:21:20,350 --> 01:21:18,170
a proton mail account which is not just

1770
01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:20,360
double encrypted but it's also hosted on

1771
01:21:26,370 --> 01:21:22,489
a server in Switzerland which is not

1772
01:21:28,690 --> 01:21:26,380
subject to us subpoenas so you know

1773
01:21:30,370 --> 01:21:28,700
again if they really want to get you

1774
01:21:32,620 --> 01:21:30,380
they're going to get you but at least

1775
01:21:34,330 --> 01:21:32,630
this way you might slow them down a

1776
01:21:36,940 --> 01:21:34,340
little bit so getting back to this

1777
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:36,950
surveillance a question when you're

1778
01:21:45,220 --> 01:21:42,290
before trial or before court your court

1779
01:21:46,750 --> 01:21:45,230
appearances what was that like were you

1780
01:21:51,060 --> 01:21:46,760
being surveilled through this whole

1781
01:21:53,410 --> 01:21:51,070
investigation very heavy in-your-face

1782
01:21:55,930 --> 01:21:53,420
surveillance where they would Park five

1783
01:21:59,140 --> 01:21:55,940
cars like all around my house

1784
01:22:02,680 --> 01:21:59,150
I on a street every block around my

1785
01:22:04,300 --> 01:22:02,690
house they would follow us to church and

1786
01:22:05,380 --> 01:22:04,310
come into church and sit in the pew

1787
01:22:07,780 --> 01:22:05,390
right behind us

1788
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:07,790
they would follow us into target or into

1789
01:22:15,010 --> 01:22:11,290
restaurants I mean it was really heavy

1790
01:22:16,630 --> 01:22:15,020
nasty provocative surveillance yes so

1791
01:22:21,100 --> 01:22:16,640
when we put this whole thing into

1792
01:22:24,490 --> 01:22:21,110
perspective basically the this whole

1793
01:22:29,860 --> 01:22:24,500
thing you went through was all because

1794
01:22:33,310 --> 01:22:29,870
you talked about torture yeah and and

1795
01:22:35,530 --> 01:22:33,320
like you were a danger to society a

1796
01:22:37,990 --> 01:22:35,540
danger to this country at and I know

1797
01:22:42,570 --> 01:22:38,000
that I heard you in an interview say

1798
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:42,580
that a newspaper called you a traitor

1799
01:22:47,470 --> 01:22:45,770
yeah the it was an op-ed in the San

1800
01:22:51,370 --> 01:22:47,480
Francisco Chronicle said that I should

1801
01:22:55,750 --> 01:22:51,380
be put to death my god what's dead and

1802
01:22:57,910 --> 01:22:55,760
they published it yeah and so when you

1803
01:22:59,860 --> 01:22:57,920
when you're reading things like this did

1804
01:23:01,660 --> 01:22:59,870
you feel like you needed to explain

1805
01:23:05,500 --> 01:23:01,670
yourself I would just let it roll off

1806
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:05,510
you I did feel that I needed to explain

1807
01:23:08,860 --> 01:23:07,010
it to myself and you know this is

1808
01:23:11,050 --> 01:23:08,870
another another instance where my wife

1809
01:23:13,870 --> 01:23:11,060
really came to the rescue and she said

1810
01:23:16,660 --> 01:23:13,880
she said to me very pointedly you have

1811
01:23:19,450 --> 01:23:16,670
to embrace this you didn't do anything

1812
01:23:21,760 --> 01:23:19,460
wrong you have to be out there fighting

1813
01:23:23,560 --> 01:23:21,770
them and telling your side of the story

1814
01:23:25,780 --> 01:23:23,570
because eventually they're going to move

1815
01:23:26,710 --> 01:23:25,790
on to the next person and they did that

1816
01:23:29,440 --> 01:23:26,720
was ed Snowden

1817
01:23:31,930 --> 01:23:29,450
she said if you keep talking and if you

1818
01:23:34,030 --> 01:23:31,940
keep telling your story your story will

1819
01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:34,040
be the side of record it'll be the story

1820
01:23:38,380 --> 01:23:36,170
of record and she said they have

1821
01:23:40,630 --> 01:23:38,390
consistently underestimated you you're

1822
01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:40,640
tougher than they think you are you need

1823
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:42,890
to keep talking and so that's what I've

1824
01:23:48,130 --> 01:23:46,250
done well so I'm going to ask you what

1825
01:23:51,520 --> 01:23:48,140
the best thing that came out of this but

1826
01:23:53,590 --> 01:23:51,530
uh I think you already told us but what

1827
01:23:58,420 --> 01:23:53,600
is that what was the worst the hardest

1828
01:24:00,760 --> 01:23:58,430
part of this whole situation it was the

1829
01:24:04,420 --> 01:24:00,770
first in two weeks

1830
01:24:06,190 --> 01:24:04,430
after my arrest I can't even I don't

1831
01:24:09,669 --> 01:24:06,200
even have the words to describe to you

1832
01:24:14,620 --> 01:24:09,679
how terrible that period

1833
01:24:18,640 --> 01:24:14,630
uh you you think of doing horrible

1834
01:24:20,350 --> 01:24:18,650
things to yourself you you can't I can't

1835
01:24:22,810 --> 01:24:20,360
even tell you what crosses your mind

1836
01:24:25,330 --> 01:24:22,820
though those were the darkest days of my

1837
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:25,340
life it was it was worse than than my

1838
01:24:32,049 --> 01:24:29,449
parents dying no uh but in the end it's

1839
01:24:34,120 --> 01:24:32,059
it's really given me a cause and like I

1840
01:24:37,629 --> 01:24:34,130
said earlier I know I'm on the right

1841
01:24:38,830 --> 01:24:37,639
side of history and they're not and you

1842
01:24:42,429 --> 01:24:38,840
know we're going to look back on this

1843
01:24:44,469 --> 01:24:42,439
period and and we're going to say can

1844
01:24:47,319 --> 01:24:44,479
you believe we used to torture people

1845
01:24:51,609 --> 01:24:47,329
what were we barbarians it is barbaric

1846
01:24:54,310 --> 01:24:51,619
totally barbaric and so the best thing

1847
01:24:58,919 --> 01:24:54,320
that came out of this whole situation is

1848
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:02,379
well you know it puts life into

1849
01:25:07,689 --> 01:25:05,090
perspective you really get to see who

1850
01:25:10,870 --> 01:25:07,699
your friends are and I remember you know

1851
01:25:14,350 --> 01:25:10,880
in the heat of the case you know I I was

1852
01:25:16,899 --> 01:25:14,360
very polarizing in 2012 battle lines

1853
01:25:20,529 --> 01:25:16,909
were drawn and I remember my wife

1854
01:25:24,069 --> 01:25:20,539
telling me wow you really have good

1855
01:25:28,359 --> 01:25:24,079
friends and I said I do I'm blessed with

1856
01:25:30,370 --> 01:25:28,369
good friends I can count on one hand the

1857
01:25:32,410 --> 01:25:30,380
number of people who walked away from me

1858
01:25:34,839 --> 01:25:32,420
in this whole experience well that's

1859
01:25:39,129 --> 01:25:34,849
that's really really nice to hear Tom

1860
01:25:41,890 --> 01:25:39,139
Drake his story is absolutely amazing to

1861
01:25:42,219 --> 01:25:41,900
me as well are you still in touch with

1862
01:25:45,310 --> 01:25:42,229
him

1863
01:25:47,410 --> 01:25:45,320
oh yeah close touch in fact I spoke with

1864
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:47,420
in this morning yeah tom has been a

1865
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:50,570
great great source of support for me we

1866
01:25:53,500 --> 01:25:52,010
do a lot of good work together that's

1867
01:25:58,209 --> 01:25:53,510
that's really great and how about

1868
01:26:00,819 --> 01:25:58,219
Jesslyn yeah I'm in regular contact with

1869
01:26:02,580 --> 01:26:00,829
jessalyn as well she now leads the it's

1870
01:26:04,839 --> 01:26:02,590
called the whisper program the the

1871
01:26:08,799 --> 01:26:04,849
whistleblower and source protection

1872
01:26:12,689 --> 01:26:08,809
program at expose facts done just for a

1873
01:26:17,020 --> 01:26:12,699
little back story on that she actually

1874
01:26:18,580 --> 01:26:17,030
was a whistleblower yeah she was at the

1875
01:26:20,949 --> 01:26:18,590
Justice Department she was the Justice

1876
01:26:23,200 --> 01:26:20,959
Department's ethics officer and she was

1877
01:26:25,510 --> 01:26:23,210
fired because she recommended the

1878
01:26:27,280 --> 01:26:25,520
John Walker Lindh be read her be read

1879
01:26:29,560 --> 01:26:27,290
his rights when he was arrested in

1880
01:26:33,490 --> 01:26:29,570
Pakistan and I understand there was some

1881
01:26:35,340 --> 01:26:33,500
missing files and all that yeah she had

1882
01:26:39,010 --> 01:26:35,350
documented all the back-and-forth

1883
01:26:41,440 --> 01:26:39,020
between herself and her superiors and

1884
01:26:43,479 --> 01:26:41,450
the FBI saying that John Walker Lindh as

1885
01:26:45,220 --> 01:26:43,489
an American citizen had to be read his

1886
01:26:48,100 --> 01:26:45,230
rights and had the right to counsel on

1887
01:26:51,340 --> 01:26:48,110
the right to remain silent and when she

1888
01:26:53,620 --> 01:26:51,350
went back to the file it had been

1889
01:26:55,780 --> 01:26:53,630
destroyed someone had gone in and just

1890
01:27:00,310 --> 01:26:55,790
destroyed the whole file to cover it up

1891
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:00,320
it's unbelievable so your book what what

1892
01:27:06,100 --> 01:27:03,730
can someone expect to read in your book

1893
01:27:09,370 --> 01:27:06,110
well it's a combination of things it's

1894
01:27:12,700 --> 01:27:09,380
it's it's kind of a in some places it's

1895
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:12,710
a serious political science II look at

1896
01:27:19,950 --> 01:27:15,050
at the judicial system and prison reform

1897
01:27:23,020 --> 01:27:19,960
um but I'm told it's very funny uh

1898
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:23,030
I'm proud of that I think it's very

1899
01:27:25,390 --> 01:27:23,570
funny

1900
01:27:27,190 --> 01:27:25,400
I actually still laugh out loud on one

1901
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:27,200
chapter every time I read it and I've

1902
01:27:30,850 --> 01:27:28,850
read it you know a million times and I

1903
01:27:34,570 --> 01:27:30,860
wrote it because I experienced it still

1904
01:27:36,220 --> 01:27:34,580
makes me laugh and it also includes the

1905
01:27:39,430 --> 01:27:36,230
letters from Loreto blog series that

1906
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:39,440
that won me the the pen First Amendment

1907
01:27:44,500 --> 01:27:41,290
award one of the one of the big four

1908
01:27:46,270 --> 01:27:44,510
literary prizes on America so I think

1909
01:27:48,580 --> 01:27:46,280
people will like it the reviews have

1910
01:27:50,500 --> 01:27:48,590
been fantastic and not only have the

1911
01:27:53,560 --> 01:27:50,510
reviews been great but we completely

1912
01:27:56,140 --> 01:27:53,570
sold out of the first edition really in

1913
01:27:58,840 --> 01:27:56,150
the yeah the first five days that it was

1914
01:28:01,390 --> 01:27:58,850
on the market and on Friday the

1915
01:28:02,830 --> 01:28:01,400
publisher ordered another three thousand

1916
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:02,840
copies to be printed so it's actually

1917
01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:05,330
back ordered now on Amazon I think

1918
01:28:09,310 --> 01:28:07,850
they're gonna I think they're gonna get

1919
01:28:12,790 --> 01:28:09,320
the copies tomorrow or the day after but

1920
01:28:15,610 --> 01:28:12,800
but yeah it completely sold that is that

1921
01:28:20,020 --> 01:28:15,620
is reciting so what do you think the

1922
01:28:22,390 --> 01:28:20,030
future is for yourself I will never work

1923
01:28:24,940 --> 01:28:22,400
in Washington again I'm essentially

1924
01:28:28,090 --> 01:28:24,950
persona non grata in Washington but I'm

1925
01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:28,100
here in beautiful sunny Los Angeles

1926
01:28:34,030 --> 01:28:31,130
because uh I do have a future in Los

1927
01:28:35,980 --> 01:28:34,040
Angeles I heard with Oliver Stone we

1928
01:28:37,630 --> 01:28:35,990
sold a TV series together to the his

1929
01:28:39,700 --> 01:28:37,640
we channel that's in development now I

1930
01:28:43,090 --> 01:28:39,710
partnered on another show for AMC

1931
01:28:45,780 --> 01:28:43,100
network with Alec Baldwin and I pitched

1932
01:28:48,400 --> 01:28:45,790
a third show today to three different

1933
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:48,410
production companies I hope to sell it

1934
01:28:53,470 --> 01:28:50,690
in the coming week or so so I think my

1935
01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:53,480
future is in its in television people

1936
01:28:58,690 --> 01:28:56,090
are intrigued by my case they like my

1937
01:29:02,200 --> 01:28:58,700
writing I have three books that I've

1938
01:29:04,570 --> 01:29:02,210
published now and I think this is where

1939
01:29:06,790 --> 01:29:04,580
my future well I think that's wonderful

1940
01:29:09,790 --> 01:29:06,800
and if you really if you look at the big

1941
01:29:11,380 --> 01:29:09,800
picture this would never be if you

1942
01:29:14,200 --> 01:29:11,390
didn't have if you never went through

1943
01:29:16,780 --> 01:29:14,210
don't you went through yeah that's right

1944
01:29:18,460 --> 01:29:16,790
it's odd the way things work about work

1945
01:29:22,060 --> 01:29:18,470
out but yeah you're exactly right and

1946
01:29:25,030 --> 01:29:22,070
I'm I'm almost uh wanting to ask you if

1947
01:29:29,290 --> 01:29:25,040
you could change anything would you

1948
01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:29,300
change it yeah I would have hired an

1949
01:29:32,950 --> 01:29:30,770
attorney before blowing the whistle

1950
01:29:34,390 --> 01:29:32,960
rather than after when you hire an

1951
01:29:36,850 --> 01:29:34,400
attorney after you let the cat out of

1952
01:29:39,550 --> 01:29:36,860
the bag you are reactionary you have to

1953
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:39,560
react tonight I wish I had an attorney

1954
01:29:45,070 --> 01:29:42,050
first to advise me that that is uh

1955
01:29:46,600 --> 01:29:45,080
that's a really good point well I want

1956
01:29:48,130 --> 01:29:46,610
to thank you so much and you can you

1957
01:29:52,900 --> 01:29:48,140
have actually a website which is your

1958
01:29:59,710 --> 01:29:52,910
name right yeah it's a WW John Kiriakou

1959
01:30:01,900 --> 01:29:59,720
calm jo hn k ir IA kou calm and the book

1960
01:30:03,850 --> 01:30:01,910
is doing time like a spa excellent so

1961
01:30:06,970 --> 01:30:03,860
everyone you can order that book on

1962
01:30:08,830 --> 01:30:06,980
Amazon it's backordered but more copies

1963
01:30:11,290 --> 01:30:08,840
are coming and how about Kendall will be

1964
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:11,300
on Kendall yes

1965
01:30:15,910 --> 01:30:13,850
Kendall was supposed to be released last

1966
01:30:16,690 --> 01:30:15,920
Tuesday and it's going to be tomorrow

1967
01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:16,700
excellent

1968
01:30:23,230 --> 01:30:20,090
John thank you so much it's it's been a

1969
01:30:24,700 --> 01:30:23,240
real pleasure speaking to you Thank You

1970
01:30:28,930 --> 01:30:24,710
Morgan thanks for having me okay take

1971
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:28,940
care about bye alright everyone so that

1972
01:30:38,110 --> 01:30:34,010
is it for the show thanks so much for

1973
01:30:42,130 --> 01:30:38,120
listening and hang in there just one

1974
01:30:44,650 --> 01:30:42,140
second next week we have I'm just trying

1975
01:30:48,410 --> 01:30:44,660
to remark Stanley Mark Stanley is a

1976
01:30:51,229 --> 01:30:48,420
musician with an amazing story

1977
01:30:53,180 --> 01:30:51,239
he will be here next Monday st. thanks